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#1 ARCHIVED POSTS FROM
SPECIAL EDUCATION FOLDER:  ADHD AND SOCIAL SKILLS TRAINING
JANUARY 19, 1995 - JULY 29, 1995
FILE NAME:  SPEDSST1.TXT
38 PAGES

Subj:  Looking for Research Studies
Date:  95-01-19 18:29:48 EDT
From:  EMallow

Hi.  I am currently doing research on the effect of ADHD and social skills.
The child that I am studying has a severe form of ADHD (some documents
suggest PDD).  I am wondering if anyone out there can direct me towards
research done in this area and any programs that may be helpful.  The child
makes statements to classmates that upsets them, aviods eye contact,
parttakes in some unusual behaviors and seems to be unaware of social cues.

I would appreciate any assistance you could give me.

[e-mail]:  Re:Looking for Research Studies
Date:  95-01-24 13:49:48 EDT
From:  FRBennett

I have worked for five years with a severe ADHD boy.  I did a paper on it but
can't seem to find my research.  I'll keep looking and get back to you.  One
name to look under is Diane Twachtman.  She does work with ADHD, PDD and
autism.  She has some great theories and ideas.  I'll keep you posted on my
files.-----BeckySubj:  Re:Looking for Research Studies
Date:  95-01-25 11:29:29 EDT
From:  TJSp

I'm very interested in this subject.  Several years ago, I read an article
about a social skills group for ADD boys.  I believe it was in my Challenge
newsletter (published by Attention Deficit Disorder Association.) I can't
seem to find the article and am looking for a group like this for my son.
I'll watch this board because this is an area of treatment for ADD that needs
to be addressed.  Thanks.Subj:  ADD Self-Help Group
Date:  95-01-26 01:40:47 EDT
From:  Stockmaik

Check Keyword DISABILITIES for info on a self-help group on AOL that meets
10PM ET on Sunday.Subj:  ADD EXPERT LIVE ON AOL!
Date:  95-01-26 13:12:17 EDT
From:  MaryDeee

On Sunday, February 5 at 10PM Eastern, the Issues in Mental Health Forum will
welcome Edward M. Hallowell, M.D., the country's best-known expert on
Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), to America Online's Globe auditorium.  Just
go to Keyword:  Globe

Dr. Hallowell, co-author of the ADD best-seller "Driven to Distraction" is
familiar to millions from his appearances on many radio and TV programs,
including 20/20, and Good Morning America. He'll soon be appearing on the
Donahue show, too.

Dr. Hallowell and his co-author, John J. Ratey, M.D.,  recently released a
sequel titled "Answers to Distraction."  In this new book they respond to the
questions their enormous and expanding audience has most often asked them
about ADD.

Dr. Hallowell, who himself has been diagnosed with ADD, is a psychiatrist
with a private practice in the Boston area. He's also an instructor in
psychiatry at Harvard Medical School.

Issues in Mental Health forum leader Arrianne will host the conference as Dr.
Hallowell shares his experiences with ADD and responds to questions from AOL
attendees.

This promises to be the largest online gathering in history to discuss
Attention Deficit Disorder. Help to spread the word among your friends, and
get there early for a good seat.  Let's join together and show everyone how
large a group of ADD interested people there are here on AOL!
Subj:  need more info about ADD
Date:  95-01-27 19:14:45 EDT
From:  Rfab

I need information on ADD or where to go to look for information on it.
I have an eight year old daughter whom I think may be ADD.She has a lot of
difficulty focusing in school and is very inconsistant with test grades,ect.
I need to have her tested but do not know where to take her.         Subj:
ANOTHER FORUM
Date:  95-01-28 01:07:54 EDT
From:  Stockmaik

Check keyword IMH for more info on ADD.  I think IMH stands for Issues on
Mental Health.  There's lot's of stuff there!Subj:  Re:Looking for Research
Studies
Date:  95-01-29 16:12:34 EDT
From:  SLegg007

Another great resource has been the research of Russel Barkley, PhD.  He has
writtten numerous books regarding ADHD and related issues...I'm interested in
more communication on the subject.  i currently work with children,
adolescents and adults with ADHD.

[e-mail]:  Re:need more info about ADD
Date:  95-01-30 00:23:14 EDT
From:  CRO2

My son was diagnosed by a neuro-psychologist.  She was able to pick up his
ADD with HYPOactivity that other specialists had missed.  He had had a CORE
evaluation first with the school specialists. That testing was inconclusive.
Because of the inconclusive results (and a little arm-twisting), the school
department paid for the additional outside testing.Subj:  Hallowell coming to
AOL!
Date:  95-02-04 17:05:35 EDT
From:  SusanS29

I want to remind everyone that Dr. Ned Hallowell, co-author of DRIVEN TO
DISTRACTION and ANSWERS TO DISTRACTION, will be on AOL Sunday night from
10:00 - 11:45 PM. He'll be speaking in the Globe auditorium (Keyword: Globe)

This is a "don't miss" event. Be sure YOU are there!Subj:  Auditory
Integration Training???
Date:  95-02-05 10:09:51 EDT
From:  AlexTampa

Any information out there on Auditory Integration Training (AIT)?  ...the
literature they've sent us says ". . . random modulation of  frequencies and
volume levels as the client listens to music through headphones.  This
reduces the sensitivity to sounds, decreases the sensitivity to sounds,
decreases the tendency to block them out, and improves the perception of all
incoming auditory information."   The program is $1,200 ( which is cheap if
it works).  Is this just another entry from the "fruit-of-the-month"
club?Subj:  Re:Auditory Integration Training
Date:  95-02-05 11:26:28 EDT
From:  SusanS29

     They probably mean well, but $1200 is a LOT of money for something that
hasn't been proven scientifically (I mean by independent, unbiased
researchers who didn't develop the idea themselves. The developers will bias
their experimental design without even realizing it.)

       In learning disabilities if there's one thing we've learned (and it's
been demonstrated in well-controlled research) you *cannot* "repair" the
central problem. You can only teach the child how to work around it or
compensate for it. Why this auditory process would be any different than any
other learning function--well, I can think of no reason why it would.

However, if I genuinely believed that I'd found the magic route to do this
I'd be pretty excited. I might try to find a way to get it out to the public.

Real solutions aren't so simple that they can be described in a brochure.
Real solutions are individualized, not "one treatment fits all."Subj:  Re:ADD
EXPERT LIVE ON AOL!
Date:  95-02-20 14:22:02 EDT
From:  CBlanke776

Please advise when the next session will be.Subj:  Re:Auditory Integration
Training
Date:  95-02-22 21:54:42 EDT
From:  MarianB242

I HAVE NOT USED THIS TRAINING FOR MY OWN CHILD HOWEVER MANY OF MY FRIENDS
WITH AUTISTIC CHILDREN HAVE AND UNFORTUNATLEY HAVE FOUND IT TO BE AN
EXPENSIVE FRUIT OF THE MONTH CLUB BOTH FINANCAILLY AND EMOTIONALLY. WE ARE
ALL LOOKING FOR THAT ONE SOLID INTERVENTION THAT WILL MAKE LIFE THAT MUCH
EASIER FOR OUR CHILDREN. I HOPE THE CURRENT STRATERGIES FOR SUCCESS FOR YOU
CHILD ARE MEETING WITH SATISFACTION. KEEP IN TOUCHSubj:  ATYPICAL ADD/PDD
Date:  95-02-22 22:03:07 EDT
From:  MarianB242

WE ARE CONSTANTLY SEARCHING FOR THE ONE PROGRAM WHERE OUR SON AGE 13 WILL
FIT. PUBLIC SCHOOL WAS AN EMOTIONAL DISASTOUR WHILE HIS CURRENT SCHOOL
PLACEMENT IS A PRIVATE DAY SCHOOL FOR CHILDREN WITH  AADD IT STILL IS NOT A
GOOD FIT, HIS DEFECITS IN THE SOCIAL EMOTIONAL REALM MAKE HIM AN EASY TARGET
, HE ALSO HAS TOURETTE SYNDROME AND MULTITUDES OF LEARNING DISSABILITES WITH
AN INTACT IQ OF 109. IKNOW I AM NOT HTE ONLY PARENT STRUGGLING WITH THIS
ISSUE IT JUST FEESL THAT WAY. MY FRIENDS WITH CHILDREN WITH PDD SEE OUR SON
AS SO MUCH MORE IN TACT THAN WHILE FRIENDS WITH TYPICAL CHILDREN JUST DON'T
GET IT . HELP WITH THE ROLLERCOAST OF EMTIONS OF BEING THE PARENT OF SEVERLEY
DISABLED NORMAL CHILD. Subj:  Re:Hallowell coming to AOL!
Date:  95-02-24 17:17:21 EDT
From:  JBates2952

Dear Susan, How was the forum with Dr. Hallowell?  I'm sorry I missed it.  Do
you know when there will be another?Subj:  Re:Hallowell coming to AOL!
Date:  95-02-24 22:19:11 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Most of the people -- including Hallowell -- thought it was kind of boring.
Among other things, Hallowell couldn't choose which questions to answer. Many
of the questions repeated information from his introductory information.

In addition these meets on AOL require the guest to speak in "sound bites."
You can only fit two lines into a comment box in a chat like that. It really
does affect communication.

I would suggest you download the log of it. I think it's available in the IMH
library.Subj:  Possible ADHD
Date:  95-03-02 10:46:49 EDT
From:  LGraham

I have an 8 year old child who has had behavioral problems since he was a
toddler.  Every year I get to know his teacher on a first name basis.
Although he seems to show a slight improvement this year, I wonder if he is
border-line ADHD.   He has problems controlling his behavior in a structured
setting.  He is able to concentrate for periods of time if he's drawing or
playing Sega, but if he gets wound up, he cannot stop.  When he plays, he
runs full steam and shrieks and yells and will not stop until I force him to.
He is very bright and has a good heart and I worry about his self-esteem
because he's been getting in trouble for his behavior all his life.  Do you
have any suggestions?Subj:  Re:Possible ADHD
Date:  95-03-02 12:27:23 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Have you read Mary Fowler's  Maybe You Know My Kid?

It may help you in figuring things out.

Are you planning to have your child evaluated?  If so, make sure it is with
someone who REALLY knows ADD.

Also, the books by Edward Hallowell and John Ratey are good:  Driven to
Distraction and Answer to Distraction.

Hallowell said he'd like to rename the disorder:  Variable Attention
Disorder.  Inconsistency is a trade mark.  Some times they can focus like
crazy and some times there is no way they can.Subj:  Re:Possible ADHD
Date:  95-03-02 16:56:03 EDT
From:  LGraham

Thanks for your quick response!  I'll pick up Maybe You Know My Kid this
weekend.  I want to check and see if my insurance covers ADHD testing.Subj:
Re:Possible ADHD
Date:  95-03-02 20:17:20 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"He is able to concentrate for periods of time if he's drawing or playing
Sega..."

This does not rule out ADD and doesn't even mean it's "mild" if he does have
it. Children with ADD will be able to attend better for things they have
talent -- or affinity -- or both -- for.

Suggestions? Find out what's going on.Subj:  looking for a school
Date:  95-03-11 14:03:49 EDT
From:  Grflash

We have a LD child & are seeking a boarding school which specializes in these
types of problems.  Your input appreciated.  The closer to Indianapolis the
better.Subj:  Re:looking for a school
Date:  95-03-11 17:06:34 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Go to your local public library.  They usually have guides to specialized
prviate secondary schools - boarding and otherwise.  Also, you could buy the
Peterson Guide to Secondary Schools.  It indexes special curriculums in the
back.Subj:  ADD & BIOFEEDBACK
Date:  95-03-14 01:40:00 EDT
From:  RMB4582517

My 11 yr old son had ADD & is mildly retarded - I have hear about a
biofeedback program to help ADD children bring themselves "back on track"
Does anyone know anything about this?

Thanks,
Nancy

[e-mail]:  Re:ADD & BIOFEEDBACK
Date:  95-03-14 19:40:36 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Biofeedback hasn't been conclusively proven to be effective *except by those
who have either strong interest or financial interest in it.* That is, no
unbiased research has shown benefits, esp. benefits that last over time.

I have heard that some insurance companies are beginning to pay for it. My
suggestion would be to try it *if your insurance will pay for it.* It's quite
expensive.Subj:  Re:ADD & BIOFEEDBACK
Date:  95-03-15 00:18:40 EDT
From:  Puns

We tried biofeedback in a study and it had no long lasting affects.  When we
thought we would try it for longer, I asked for a copy of the results of the
study and was very dissatisfied.  Thus, we decided not to get into the
expense at this time.Subj:  Re:Looking for Boarding School
Date:  95-03-24 04:12:19 EDT
From:  Richproc

We have a 15 yr old boy with ADHD and are looking for the right school, with
a small student to teacher ratio, able to handle the challenges of a bright,
but unfocused teenager.  Would be interested in schools in the west.Subj:
Re:Looking for Boarding School
Date:  95-03-25 10:02:48 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Go to your public library.  They have guides on private independent secondary
schools.  One is the Peterson guide.  Schools with special curriculums and
needs are indexed in the back.  Good luck.Subj:  Re:Looking for Research
Studies
Date:  95-03-30 01:37:43 EDT
From:  DBrostof

We suggest you check with the Child Development Center at Univ of CA Irvine,
CA  - area code is 714, but you're on your own from there!
DBrostofSubj:  Re:need more info about ADD
Date:  95-03-30 01:39:55 EDT
From:  DBrostof

to Rfab:  contact Child development ctr at Univ of CA, Irvine campus (714
area code!)
DBrostofSubj:  Re:Looking for Research Studies
Date:  95-04-03 20:02:39 EDT
From:  EDEBOHLS

I did much research during my college career on ADHD and still have numerous
research articles from the medical library, I will locate them when I am
offline and add them next session.  My son has ADHD and went through 2 8-12
wk group sessions on building/dealing with social skills training.  This was
available through a counseling firm in my city who employs a social worker.
Since having her speak at our local CH.A.D.D. meeting her business has
increased and so have the options for entering such groups.  Also CH.A.D.D.
which is the national organization for support for children and adults with
ADD puts out many publications and in them are many product lists, books,
videos and audios and games related to social skills.  National CH.A.D.D. can
be be reached at [phone].499 NW 70th Ave. Suite 109, Plantation,FL
33317.  They can tell you if there is a local chapter in your area, if there
is not you can start your own like we did.  ( About 4 parents got together
saw a need and with national's help began to meet it.) I f you have specific
questions contact me at [e-mail]
thanks.Subj:  Re:need more info about ADD
Date:  95-04-03 20:09:14 EDT
From:  EDEBOHLS

The first place to start to have your child checked for ADD is with the
school.  Request an M-team (multidisciplianry team- consists usually of a
social worker, school psychologist, nurse, teachers)  they can help you do
some preliminary screening.  Ultimately you will need a diagnosis from an MD.
Another prescreening tool that I use with parents who suspect ADD or who have
never heard of ADD is the library.  There are some video tapes that lay out
what ADD is and what can be done about it.  The ones I use are Thomas Phelan,
PHD All about Attention Deficit Disorder I and II. Usually after viewing
these parents have an idea whether this is what their child has, and then
they are releived to know they are not alone.  It also makes suggestions on
where and how to get help.  Also check to see if you have a local chapter of
CH.A.D.D. in your area or nearby, they can be most helpful with connecting
you to appropriate resources.  If these still do not offer you the help you
need. Contact me with your specific requests and perhaps I can be more
specific.  [e-mail]:  Re:Looking for Research Studies
Date:  95-04-07 13:55:53 EDT
From:  RadCain

To each of you that have supplied information via this forum, I simply want
to say thank-you.

My 5 year old son has experienced behavioral problems since he was a toddler.
He has infact been "kicked out" of two preschools.  His former pediatrition
insisted that his condition was not atypical and that with "appropriate"
disciplinary action on my part his actions could be corrected.  Well, let me
tell you that the last couple of years have been a living Hell.  While my son
can quote to me verbatim the rules or the accepted behavior, he quite simply
cannot routinely follow through.

In his present preschool, which is a teaching lab at a local community
college, the kids are often allowed to make choices involving their daily
activities.  The teachers advise me that he is usually unable to spend more
than 5 minutes on any single activity, even those that he seems to enjoy.  I
have found that there are only two activities that will hold his attention,
playing on the PC or watching TV.

I have spent well over $3000 in the last 4 months with a local Psychologist.
These sessions, which have been described to me as being "play therapy", have
been fruitless.  My wife died of ovarian cancer when my son was only 18
months old.  The Therapist is of the opionion that my sons behavior problems
are as a result of depression and the play therapy will allow him to work
through the pain and anger.  Well, again I've seen no improvement from the
sessions.  I'm certainly not trained to diagnois depression---but, I think I
can identify a happy child and he is just that.  It's got to be something
else.

While I have certainly suspected for sometime that something is going on that
I do not understand, I never have developed an understanding of what ADD or
ADHD entailed.  My quest at this juncture is to educate myself with what it
is that I am dealing with.  The suggested authors and books, etc that I have
found through this forum should certainly point me in the right direction.

By the way, I am now arranging for an assessment for my son.  Oddly enough,
it seems that he has been telling me all along that something was
wrong---because he frequently says to me "Daddy, I  WANT to do good".  Maybe
now I will listen more to him.  Thanks, again, Rad   Subj:  Re:Looking for
Research Studies
Date:  95-04-07 16:01:34 EDT
From:  TURN 94

RAD    GOOD LUCK !!!    I took my daughter all over Houston Texas when she
was a toddler thinking that there was some magical pill for her behavior.  I
was told similar things. It was because her dad had drowned and she felt
abandoned,  we had a rocky marriage, we had a symbiotic relationship, she
just takes more time to develop, and on and on and on.

When I sent her to kindergarten, I received a call about two hours later and
was told to come get her  that she was obviously delayed. She didn't know her
colors, couldn't spell her name, couldn't even tie her shoes !!!
I then was instructed to have her evaluated before she could return. That was
in 1978 and we didn't know about 94-142. Thus she began school in November.
For three monthe she watched her friends and siblings go to school, she would
put on her new school clothes and cry.

She now is 22 years old and has a diagnosis of mild Mental Retardation and
PDD. She attends the Community College as a part of her Transition Program
and will continue there after leaving public school.
There is hope and there are answers you just have to keep looking. Subj:
Re:Looking for Research Studies
Date:  95-04-07 19:19:29 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"His former pediatrition insisted that his condition was not atypical and
that with "appropriate" disciplinary action on my part his actions could be
corrected."

And to think this person got paid to treat you this badly!

My personal slogan has become "Don't pay someone to beat you up
psychologically."

"I have found that there are only two activities that will hold his
attention, playing on the PC or watching TV."

Computers provide a structure (and interest level) that help children with
short attention spans cope with the difficulty. As for TV, you only know his
face is pointed at it. You can't see inside his head, so you dont know if his
attention is wandering or not. It only requires a very superficial level of
attention to watch TV, so the quality of the attention becomes an issue also.

"I have spent well over $3000 in the last 4 months with a local Psychologist.
These sessions, which have been described to me as being "play therapy", have
been fruitless."

You should get a diagnosis first and then seek help. Your child sounds like a
typical child with ADD. Although other things can mimic ADD, I think
responsible psychologists should work hard to rule it out, as -- since you
have seen -- not every therapy will help solve every problem.

"The Therapist is of the opionion that my sons behavior problems are as a
result of depression and the play therapy will allow him to work through the
pain and anger.  Well, again I've seen no improvement from the sessions.  I'm
certainly not trained to diagnois depression---but, I think I can identify a
happy child and he is just that."

I'm very sorry to hear about the tragedy of your wife's death, but that
doesn't mean that your child's problems stem from it. That's only one theory.
Such tragedies happen to children whether they have ADD or not, so this
circumstance doesn't rule out the possibilty of ADD at all.

"I can identify a happy child and he is just that.  It's got to be something
else."

Often parent instincts are quite sound.

"Daddy, I  WANT to do good".

Yes, of course he does. With ADD or ADHD the child's brain functions sort of
like this: "Ready... FIRE!!! ooops -- AIM!!!"

I had a book come out recently, and the chapter that explains the basics of
ADD (as it affects education) is available for download on AOL. Use Keyword:
IMH. It's about sixty or so files down, so you'll have to ask for "more" a
couple of times.

After you've downloaded it, open it *in your word processor.* Do NOT open it
in AOL's text editor, because it is quite limited. You won't get the whole
file, including some things I think are pretty important at the end.

Good luck.Subj:  To RadCain
Date:  95-04-11 15:48:33 EDT
From:  Sandy Hoff

I hope that your son is diagnosed soon, and that you will be sharing a
success story with us in the next few months via this bulletin board. So many
of us have seen our kids unable to attend and succeed, and it's so relieving
and gratifying to see positive results after a correct diagnosis is made. I
can empathize with what you are going through right now. I hope you will keep
us updated. Good luck.Subj:  Re:To RadCain
Date:  95-04-12 01:13:00 EDT
From:  LDLYNCH

I can empathize with you and your son. Having an ADHD child is a very trying
experience. Just to let you know, my son Josh, is currently mainstreamed into
his middle school after several years in an LD program. Because of my
involvement in the education process, he still maintains his IEP in the
school system. Early diagnosis is the trick to helping your son develop a
positive self-esteem. Please let me know how things are going with the
diagnosis.

LDLynch.Subj:  ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-14 10:48:30 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

My son has just been identified as being "mildly ADD". Does anyone understand
the differences between "mild", "moderate" and "severe" ADD?   Is there any
difference in the emotional and social impact on the child?  Would like to
start a discussion?  Thanks.Subj:  To: RadCain
Date:  95-04-14 10:57:48 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

My I suggest a book, "The Misunderstood Child" by
Dr. Larry Silver/  This is the definitive book for parents who are trying to
understand learning disabilities (LD) and ADD.  Even though LD and ADD are
different, there is a high corralation between the two.  If you need more
information try CHADD (Childred with ADD).  This is a national group of
parents and professionals who provide information and self help to all that
are effected by this disability. The phone number is listed in the "1-800"
directory.   Good luck.Subj:  Re:Looking for a program
Date:  95-04-14 14:36:40 EDT
From:  DboDan

I have a 10year old son who is severely ADHD and is highly gifted. Because of
a congenital heart condition and the side effects of Ritalin and other ADD
drugs he , at this time can't be medicated for his ADHD. He was placed in and
SED intensity IV program and mainstreamed into the gifted math and science
this year, however, we all (staff and me) agree that an SED program is wrong
for him since any behavior problem is directly related to his ADHD. We also
know he is not LD because he is picking up everything he needs even if he
doesn't do the written work. So at this time the school can not recommend any
program for next year. It has been referred to the central office for reveiw.
Does anyone know of any program or type of program that might work. I'd be
willing to set one up in my county if I can find one that works. There is a
great need out here for it  according to the schools I have dealt with.
Help!!!!Subj:  Re:Looking for a program
Date:  95-04-14 18:02:00 EDT
From:  Ratatat

<< So at this time the school can not recommend any program for next year.>>

Does your child have an IEP written?  He has rights to an individual
education plan (translate program) written to meet his needs.  Ask the school
about the IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act), and Sec.
504.Subj:  Re:To: RadCain
Date:  95-04-14 18:03:04 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Sorry, CHADD does not have an 800 number.  For membership information call
your local chapter (get the number from informtion), or call the national
office in Plantation, FL at 305-587-3700.

Subj:  Re:ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-14 18:08:15 EDT
From:  Ratatat

My daughter was also diagnosed as having mild ADD and no hyperactivity.  I
have read and reviewed everything I can get my hands on about ADD for the
past year.  There is very little written that applies direction to my kind of
child.

Most things that are written are worse-case scenario.  What I have had to do
is glean from my readings the one or two things here or there that apply and
help.

Though every person's ADD is very individual, there are plenty of things that
should be done for every child with ADD.

Predictability, structure, routine, unconditional love, organization, time
enough to do things, help staying on task, and understanding are all things
that are important.

You might want to get a couple of copies of the CHADD Educator's Manual, one
for you and one for the school.  They are $10 each.  You can order by phone
from CHADD's publisher:  Casat Associates 1-800-545-5583.

What is the age of  your child.  If I knew more I could recommend other
things to read.Subj:  Re:Looking for a program
Date:  95-04-15 01:35:30 EDT
From:  Keldonia

IDEA is the law that protects children with disabilities. Although your child
has been identified, he also has to be served programatically in an
academically challenging program. Therefore when planning his program you
must first start in the appropriate level of regular education. Based on the
Inclusive movement and the Least Restrictive Environment mandate, the program
begins in the most academically appropriate environment. Then the
modification planning begins. Your child may need a behavior plan, or
in-school counseling, a study carrel, content mastery, regular visits from a
psyche assoc., pull-out only when behaviors interfere with education the one
thing that he must have is the availability of appropriate academic
information.  If he is not academically challenged, you may see an increase
in inappropriate behaviorsSubj:  Re:ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-15 09:28:51 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

Regarding the question of whether there is any difference between mild and
severe ADD, I am not sure that any quick reference guide is available to
enlighten us. However, in my experience I think there may be some value in
attempting to sort out  "less" from "more" complicated cases. That is cases
where a child meets existing criteria for a diagnosis, but has only the
minimal number of symptoms required, and is experiencing disruption in
several settings, but, only in certain aspects. For example, a child whose
ADD symptoms "just" meet criteria, who has trouble with impulsivity and
inattention on math tests and in written work (e.g., sloppiness, inattention
and poor organization) who otherwise is not troubled by marked behavior
problems or social-emotional difficulties.  By way of contrast,  a child with
"severe" ADD might be represented by a child who more than meets minimal
criteria and in fact has many more symptoms that are disrupting a child's
functioning to a significant degree in all settings. For example, a child who
manifests severe impulse control problems (will lash out physically in
response to real or perceived threats or irritations), cannot regulate their
activity level (e.g., on the go "every" waking moment") and are very, very
distractible, such that sustained engagement even with really "interesting"
stuff is limited to a few minutes at a time, or occurs only in the context of
significant reinforcements or threats.  Often these children perform very
erratically and well below their capabilities at school. Sometimes
individualized educational settings are required.  Such things as personal
care attendants in the home or other supportive adults, in addition to
parents are required in order to help with the supervision and behavioral
supports needed during non-school hours. Intelligence is not in my experience
a key factor, as the kinds of disruption caused by ADD can vary depending in
part upon individuals own strengths and weaknesses,  and the ability and
willingness of the family, school and work setting to accomodate to their
needs and support the use of appropriate compensatory strategies.
Interestingly, there is not always a clear relationship between the severity
of the individual symptoms and the level of disruption experienced by the
child. By this I mean that symptoms of relatively mild severity, in the
context of a high strung, negativistic, "brittle" and/or  emotionally
immature child can be devestating in terms of everyday impact.
Alternatively, severe symptoms in a child with a positive outlook, who uses
compensatory strategies, who lives in a supportive family and attends a
school that accepts and supports the child in a realistic manner  may not be
easily distinguishable when compared with other nonaffected children.  To
that end, I suspect that the severity of a child's disorder is only part of
the story. The willingness and ability of the school and family to work
"with" and respond appropriately to a given child's needs represents another
equally important influence. Obviously there are many things out there that
can moderate the impact of a childs symptoms, leaving us all wondering, at
times, if severity matters as much as "fit" between a child and their
particular symptom pattern, a child and their particular family and that
child and their particular school setting.  My apologies for the long
windedness of the response,

PeterCB55Subj:  Re:ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-15 23:45:03 EDT
From:  Raymond328

Yeah, mild ADD, that's like being mildly pregnant.  It doesn't matter whether
it's mild or not, what's important is that whatever degree it is it needs to
be handled in the same way.  As your son gets older, and I don't know how old
he is, but generally, as these kids get older, more is expected of them, it
gets harder, and if their add is not managed appropriately, it's no longer
"mild" any more.  Yes, I'm very interested in a discussion group.  Let me
know.
Subj:  Re:Possible ADHD
Date:  95-04-15 23:59:17 EDT
From:  Raymond328

LGraham, if you haven't been told yet, I highly suggest that you have him
tested.  Medication will help him a great deal, and you are very right to be
worried about his self-esteem.  He will get worse as he gets older and more
is expected of him.  Positive Parenting techniques, school work, homework,
and class room modifications will also help him.  Good luck!
Subj:  RadCain
Date:  95-04-18 00:07:35 EDT
From:  Oldyrok

I experienced similar problems with my 6 year old son.  He has been a handful
since he started preschool at age 3.  This past fall I had him evaluated by a
psychologist.  This required having my husband and I, as well as his
kindergarten teachers, fill out behavior checklists.  This doctor diagnosed
him as ADHD after reviewing the data and observing my son himself.  I took
him to a psychologist for a second opinion and he confirmed the diagnosis.
(Enough about the process).

My son has been on ritalin for 3 months now and is a DIFFERENT child!!!

He is calmer, doesn't get frustrated as easily and best of all is much
happier!!!  He is doing great at school and actually enjoys going now.  The
teachers have been wonderful during this process and we now have a successful
behavior modification program in place.

I wish you as much success as we have experienced.   Remember it can be a
slow process but the rewards are fantastic.  It is also important to note
that medication is only part of the answer.  A good behavior modification
progam is also key element of success.
Subj:  Re:ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-21 21:46:34 EDT
From:  KLEMAL

My son has "severe" ADHD, as do I.  The difference between his progress and
mine is in IQ.  My ADD caused me to look for other routes to learn.  My son
sees a "wall" and gives up.  He does not see the need to conquer a problem
which is very frustrating for me!

Fortunately, we do have a very supportive school.  I can really tell the
difference between the types of teachers available in the public school
system.
I see two types:  those who are "gifted" in communication skills and those
who haven't got a clue.  The teacher who doesn't "believe" in ADD or truly
understand it is a roadblock that will go away in June.  The teacher that
thinks whatever it takes to get the info in is a blessing.  My son now has
one of each types this year.  The one that is able to work with my son is his
resource teacher.  The other teacher has been designated by me as the
babysitter.  She is just keeping time until June.  Since she is ignorant
about ADD and causes more harm than good, I have stopped trying to look to
her with any expectations (this is my third go-around with her.  She taught
two of my other children before my son.  they also have ADD and she never
figured out what to do with the girls who are less severe.  It is April- she
will go away soon.

Well, my medication has worn off and I am wondering off topic.

I have severe ADD with all the hyperactivity and hypersensitivity.  My
parents' support was a great help.  I received no help from the school system
because I wasn't diagnosed until I was 34.

There certainly are degrees of ADHD.  I think IQ and motivation, as in all
population, contributes to the success of the individual.  Motivation helps
the individual to find a way around life's obstacles and The ADD creativity
helps to find all the unusual and untried ways around life's obstacles.

Not all ADD symptoms are bad.Subj:  Another ADD Forum please
Date:  95-04-21 21:49:48 EDT
From:  KLEMAL

to those of us more "efficient" ADDers:

Please, would someone ask the powers to be to schedule an ADD forum that is
not at 10 o'clock on Sunday night.  That is past my bedtime and Dexedrine
time.

I bet that forum is a hoot with everyone on line with out their meds!

KLEMALSubj:  Teenager W/ADD
Date:  95-04-21 22:00:03 EDT
From:  KranchFam

My son is 13 and in the 7th grade.  For the last 2 years (in middle school)
it has been very hard for him in that the teachers do not understand his
problem or do not care.  Every report card is the same.  Missing assignments
and very unorganized.  Is there any way I can get the teachers to be mor
aware of his needs without sounding like we're telling them their jobs?
I don't want the teachers to take it out on our son.  It has happened in the
past.Subj:  Re:Teenager W/ADD
Date:  95-04-22 09:13:14 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Does your son have an Individualized Education Plan (IEP)?  Do you know about
the IDEA and section 504 Federal laws?  They exist to guarantee your child
receive the support he needs to access the education available in the
schools.

You can build into an IEP things like:  my child is to be provided with the
homework assignements in writing (written by the teacher) or written by your
child and checked by the teacher and inititaled.  Then, the assignment sheets
are also read by the parent and signed and returned to school.

This is just a way to communicate that everybody knows that there is homework
and what it is.

Also try end of week checklists on which the teachers can then advise the
parents what was missing for the week, parents initial it, write a question
or comment and it goes back to school on Monday.

Set up a regular system so that everyone knows what should be coming - that
way if on Monday the teacher doesn't get the checklist back she knows that
somebody forgot.

Communication, feedback and sharing of information in a regular predictable
way is the key.

Your son has a right to this kind of help.  It is the school job to do what
needs to be done to provide your child with the support he needs to receive
an appropriate education.

Talk to the principal instead of the teachers if the teachers are being a
problem.

BTW, your said you didn't want to tell the teachers how to do their job.
Well, it sounds as if somebody needs to because they sure aren't.Subj:
Re:ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-23 17:57:55 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"My son has just been identified as being "mildly ADD". Does anyone
understand the differences between "mild", "moderate" and "severe" ADD?"

These are theoretical distinctions, and most diagnosticians don't use them.

To me, here's the problem: there's no such thing as "mild" ADD. The
diagnostic criteria require that the symptoms be significant, or they aren't
diagnostically important.

What's important is how it affects the *child's* life. If the impact is
significant, then it shouldn't be discounted by being called "mild."Subj:
Re:Looking for a program
Date:  95-04-23 17:59:15 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Write to CHADD and get two copies of their EDUCATOR'S MANUAL -- one for you
and one for the school.

Your school can write an individualized plan for him even though he isn't
eligible for special education per se.Subj:  Re:To: RadCain
Date:  95-04-23 18:00:04 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Ratatat, CHADD does have an 800 number (naturally it's at my office). I'll
try to remember to put it up (lotsa luck on that... :/)Subj:  Re:ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-23 18:03:48 EDT
From:  SusanS29

What a good point, Raymond. It may appear "mild" to the diagnostician right
now for all sorts of reasons:

The child hasn't had his "academic envelope" pushed yet, so he isn't
frustrated by the schoolwork; he has a best friend who understands him and
who is in his class this year, so he always has someone to be with at recess
and lunch, and so is not an isolate; the teacher and he are an exceptionally
good match.

His brain has yet to go through a lot of development, and that development
can have a profound effect on his learning style and the effects of ADD (for
better or worse). This is not a static condition.

I think it particularly risky to tell *the school* his ADD is "mild," because
they may then think it's all up to the parents, or the child, or the meds...
that they don't have to do anything to help.Subj:  Re:ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-23 18:06:52 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"I think IQ and motivation, as in all population, contributes to the success
of the individual."

While that can be true, I think it should be mentioned that there are also a
lot of "walking wounded" adults with ADD -- some *extremely* bright -- who
never got a handle on their life and in spite of their great intelligence
didn't achieve much or even had quite a marginal existance. I have a cousin
who will never leave prison and another relative who, at age 50, hasn't held
a full-time job successfully in decades and who lives quite a marginal life.
Both are quite bright.Subj:  Re:Another ADD Forum please
Date:  95-04-23 18:07:51 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"I bet that forum is a hoot with everyone on line with out their meds!"

You got THAT straight! (grin) Even more entertaining is when the guest
speakers come in, and the coversation is slow. You can "chat" with other
members in your row, and it gets quite raucous sometimes.Subj:  Re: ADD,
degree
Date:  95-04-23 22:04:10 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

In the discusions concerning  "degree of ADD" it has been pointed out that
the emotional state of the individual will  determine the impact that ADD
will have on one's life.  Also pointed out is that the level of motivation
that one has to be "successful" will ultimately be the key element for  an
ADD individual.  How can I, as a parent of an ADD child, generate enough
motivation to permit my son to become an independent, functioning adult?
Subj:  Re:To: RadCain
Date:  95-04-23 23:18:07 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Susan - here you go.

The phone number for CHADD membership information is:
305-587-3700

Check directory assistance for a local chapter too.

To order the CHADD Educator's Manual call:

1-800-545-5583 (it costs $10)Subj:  Re: ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-24 20:07:18 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Also pointed out is that the level of motivation that one has to be
"successful" will ultimately be the key element for  an ADD individual.  How
can I, as a parent of an ADD child, generate enough motivation to permit my
son to become an independent, functioning adult?"

Actually there's a component in the neurochemistry of ADD that *actively
interferes* with what we think of as "motivation." If a bright child seems to
lack motivation that's one solid indication that medication to counteract the
neurochemical imbalance would be an appropriate thing to try.

Motivation is a far more complex trait, behavior, whatever, than most people
think. It isn't a matter of "willpower," or "just deciding to do it," when
ADD is part of the picture.

The best thing you can do is do everything you can to help him develop coping
strategies. The easier tasks are for him, the less likely his neurochemistry
will interfere.Subj:  Re: ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-25 00:09:02 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

"The best thing you can do is do everything you can to help him develop
coping strategies. The easier tasks are for him, the less likely his
neurochemistry will interfere."

Susan, that is a very important idea.  Unfortunately, everytime the school
eases up and our son masters an academic task and feels positive, the school
decides that he he not being "stretched enough".   They decide to push him
harder.  The result is that he is frustrated, down on himself and does not
want to go to school.  The school feels that we, as parents,  do not have
high enough expectations for him.  It's just that our goal at this time is
for our son to want to go to school, remain motivated and not give up.  Even
though they have classified him as "neurologically impaired", the real
problem is that the school does not truly accept the ADD/LD diagnosis.  They
prefer to see his problem as anxiety.  Any suggestions for handling the
school?Subj:  Re:ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-26 01:25:36 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

Susan, you make a worthy point here with regard to qualitative distinctions
and ADD. When a child submits a paper filled with spelling errors or
incomplete thoughts, or forgets to submit an assignment, or blurts out a half
correct answer causing others to write them off, it doesn't matter what we
call it.  The fact remains that the daily consequences are significant, and
the additive effects of these events represents a life long challenge that
has only recently been recognized for the disruptive impact it can impart on
the child and those who are involved with them.
PeterCB55Subj:  Re:Another ADD Forum please
Date:  95-04-27 00:12:19 EDT
From:  SallyF

Susan,

Can you possibly be talking about the popcorn conversation during the
Hallowell conference...I think it made an exciting conference even more
enjoyable...See!!!!!  I think that could be one of the advantages of
ADD......Subj:  Re:ADD/SOCIAL SKILLS/MEDS
Date:  95-04-27 14:37:48 EDT
From:  PEACE4U828

My 14 y.o. ADDer without hyperactivity, was just given a low dose of Prozac
(anti-depressant) to try for some slight perfectionistic and somewhat
obsessive behaviors.  Does anyone out there know how this may or may not help
with her social skills?  She tends NOT to be very assertive and complains she
just can't compete in a conversation.  Pragmatics may be the real issue here.
Has anyone out there had any experiences with an anti-depressant helping them
with "fitting-in"?  Lonely girl needs some help here!  Thanks.Subj:  Re: ADD,
degree
Date:  95-04-27 21:32:25 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Susan, that is a very important idea.  Unfortunately, everytime the school
eases up and our son masters an academic task and feels positive, the school
decides that he he not being "stretched enough"."

They have to stop that. A child with ADD *cannot* deliver his best all the
time. In fact, I think they are more likely to have flashes of brilliance --
insights that no one can sustain on a day-to-day basis no matter how talented
they are.

"They prefer to see his problem as anxiety."

Ohhhhh... they have a "psychodynamic" bias, and that is hard to fight. Our
grade school had the same bias. You have to just keep educating them. Your
son may well be anxious; ADD will make any kid who cares *extremely* anxious
sometimes. I would be more concerned if he never were anxious.

Do they think "turning up the heat" like that on the performance expectations
helps anxiety???

This doesn't make a lot of sense (which, apparently, you've already figured
out...)Subj:  Re:ADD/SOCIAL SKILLS/MEDS
Date:  95-04-27 21:35:00 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Peace, it's been my experience that a significant number of girls with ADD
*much* prefer one-on-one socialization. Then they focus completely on the
other person. She may well have trouble focusing on the active, rapid-fire
give and take of youthful conversation. Is she taking any kind of
stimulant?Subj:  Re:ADD, degree
Date:  95-04-30 10:32:37 EDT
From:  Aug4April

Peter,  I hear you loud and clear about the problem with turning the papers
in, etc.  I am a SPED teacher working with a lot of ADD students who
experience the same problems.  My clear advice to you is to make the people
working with  your child as knowledgable as possible. This may mean time and
effort (gathering materials, etc.) but it will pay off.  Many teachers  (SPED
and reg. ed.)  know nothing of ADD----sad but true.  Don't give up or get
discouraged.Subj:  ADD & Teachers
Date:  95-05-07 22:38:50 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

We just had a terrible experience with the Learning Specialist.  My son was
so frustrated with his homework assignment that he riped it up.  We
collected, put it in a bag so they would understand that it was difficult for
him.  We also left a detailed phone message explaining what had happened, so
we could get their support.  The learing specialst told us latter in the day
that she "lite into him" and that no child should destroy their homework.  We
were caught off gaurd.  We have scheduled a meeting with the school.   I
would have expected that type of behavior from  burned out teacher.  Not the
learning specialist.  Why are the "professionals" who are supposed to know
the most about ADD and learning disabilities, appear to me that they may be
the worst informed?
Subj:  Re:ADD & Teachers
Date:  95-05-08 00:07:30 EDT
From:  SusanS29

That's really a shame. This boy is sending such a *clear* message!

On the other hand... look how lucky he is. He has YOU.Subj:  Re:ADD &
Teachers
Date:  95-05-08 06:31:36 EDT
From:  Ratatat

I am so sorry that happened to your son :(

Let's just hope that the *learning specialist* was just having a very bad day
and simply lost it.  Make sure to focus on your son's needs at your meeting,
rather than your anger at her.  Talk about his frustration, and try to tell
her what was so hard so that something positive can result.

You son is very lucky to have you.  I think you idea was brilliant to show
the teacher how bad it was.Subj:  to Ratatat
Date:  95-05-11 14:41:54 EDT
From:  KranchFam

Thank you for your input about my son and his home work problem.  I was
hoping I would be able to just talk to the teachers and they would just know
what to do.  I didn't know they would be so bull headed or just plain
ignorant of how to work with a child with ADD.  We do have an IEP for Nick
and I guess I'm just going to have to be tough and make sure he gets what he
needs whether the teachers like it or not.Subj:  Re:to Ratatat
Date:  95-05-11 17:34:41 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Unfortunately, the only adult advocate your child can absolutely count on is
YOU!  You are the only one who has a truly vested interest in the outcome!
Stick to your guns about what it is your child needs.  And good luck.Subj:
Re:to Ratatat
Date:  95-05-11 21:16:57 EDT
From:  SusanS29

The way teachers find out about ADD is that parents give them
information.Subj:  Re: to Susan
Date:  95-05-11 21:39:19 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

Don't the teacher have a responsibilty to know about ADD without having to
rely on the parent's for training?  If classifications are made, then why
aren't teachers required to know about ADD kids?  Is it because it is not in
their union contract?Subj:  Re: to Susan
Date:  95-05-12 06:11:38 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Phil,  Teachers know about teaching.  There is no requirement that they know
about ADD.  Besides, the information on ADD can change.  There is so much
more known now about this disorder than, say, 2 years ago - it would be very
hard for a teacher to stay current.  Parents, who have a very personal reason
to stay up on the latest, are sometimes the very best sources of information
for the schools.Subj:  Re: to Susan
Date:  95-05-12 17:47:35 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Don't the teacher have a responsibilty to know about ADD without having to
rely on the parent's for training?  If classifications are made, then why
aren't teachers required to know about ADD kids?  Is it because it is not in
their union contract?"

No, Phil... It's not because it's not in their union contract.

It's because we have a whole infrastructure in place for special education,
and special educators in the school to help educate the staff about those
needs... but nothing like that for ADD. There is no system in place to inform
the teachers.

When most of the teachers were in school, 90% of the students with ADD went
undiagnosed and the other 10% were managed quite badly. I know, because I
taught through those years.

It's not the teachers' faults. Very often the parent that brings a good book
to the school gets praised, and often things turn around rapidly (I recommend
CHADD's for this purpose as it's very good and only $10).Subj:  RE: Techaers
Date:  95-05-13 20:08:06 EDT
From:  KranchFam

I have found in the past year that there are teachers who are willing to do
what's necessary to help ADD kids and there are some who are not.
Unfortunatly
our son had the "not" for 2 classes.  During the course of the year I had
much contact with her and she came right out and told me she was "not going
to chase Nick around school to make sure he does his work!"  With that
attitude my sons grades plunged.  I contacted higher up personnel and got
some help but not enough.  I even tried to get  him changed to a different
class but by then the year was almost over and we just stuck it out.  Later
our doctor who specializes in behavior problems told me I as the parent had
the right to just sau "DO IT!"   Another lesson learned.  This year I have
been much stronger but still Nick has a long way to go.

Perhaps I could learn something from IDEA?  Where would I find Info on this
and 504?Subj:  Re:RE: Techaers
Date:  95-05-13 20:41:36 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Perhaps I could learn something from IDEA?  Where would I find Info on this
and 504?"

For 504 you can get an excellent book from CHADD -- the EDUCATOR'S MANUAL.
It's only $10, so I suggest you get two -- one for the school, so they can't
claim ignorance.

Call CHADD at 305-587-3700.Subj:  Re: to Susan
Date:  95-05-16 23:13:50 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

I certainly agree that the teacher can not be responsible for knowing
everything.  I do get frustrated, however,  by teachers who make no attempt
to learn about LD and ADD.  Worse yet, by learning specialists who do not try
to keep somewhat current.  I'm in a bad mood because we came from another
school meeting with the learning specialist & staff where they tried the
"psychodynamic" approach to explaining behavior, rather than looking at ADD.
This, mind you, with a child who is classified as neurologically impaired.
I quoted you, but it is still very tiring to have to keep saying the same
things over and over.  Sometimes I feel it is "two steps forward, then three
backwards."   Subj:  Re: to Susan
Date:  95-05-17 06:59:25 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Phil,

I too share your frustation to a grand degree.  Sometimes the only thing that
gives me the will to *say it again* is some humor that I can carry with me.
One thing that I posted somewhere once was:  Keeping dripping water on the
stone.  To which someone else responded:  Or keeping throwing stones on the
drip!  It still makes me smile. :DSubj:  Re: to Susan (Ratatat)
Date:  95-05-17 21:39:50 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

Ratatat,
Thanks.  :=)Subj:  Re: to Susan
Date:  95-05-18 21:00:27 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"I do get frustrated, however,  by teachers who make no attempt to learn
about LD and ADD."

You and me both, pal.

"Worse yet, by learning specialists who do not try to keep somewhat current."

I agree with you; that's appalling. All it would take would be a journal
subscription or two. (Of course a smart school would take those subscriptions
out.)

"I'm in a bad mood because we came from another school meeting with the
learning specialist & staff where they tried the "psychodynamic" approach to
explaining behavior, rather than looking at ADD."

I know exactly what you mean, and have been there as a parent. People who are
very strongly psychodynamically-oriented seem extremely resistant to the
implications of *recent* research on ADD (as opposed to old theories, mostly
inaccurate in the light of more recent knowledge.)

I'm flattered that you took one of my messages, and all I can say is keep
pecking away at them. Eventually our school got a clue.Subj:  ADD & Behavior
Modification
Date:  95-05-21 20:19:17 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

Why is so difficult to get my son to do comply with even the simple requests,
such as brushing his teeth or getting to bed?  We just get so tired of trying
to keep him on a schedule.  The only way that he ever gets anything done is
to be very motivated.  We have tried a variety of behavior mod techniques,
but nothing ever is sustained.  We are planning to start medications during
the summer or early fall.  In our Special Education Home & School Association
(PTA), behavior mod techniques are view as over rated.  I agree.  What works?
Subj:  Re:ADD & Behavior Modification
Date:  95-05-22 20:51:45 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Phil, what worked for us was natural consequences.

One of my daughters refused to shower one morning. I said fine, you're not
going to school, though, and I left for work.

She never did it again.

Don't fight over the brushed teeth, but the natural consequence is that
not-clean people don't go out in the world.Subj:  Re:ADD & Behavior
Modification
Date:  95-05-22 21:43:46 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

But Susan, if the natural consequence is to not go out into the world, then
my son would be very happy not to have to go.  The world of school is
certainly an activity that he would not mind missing.  The teeth, well, the
natural consequence are cavities.  A real consequece, but not immediate.  The
ability to impose  limits may work.  But, when my son can be so happy with
very little, taking away  priviledges does no have the impact that it may
have with many other children.  He is a very difficult kid, sometimes.  Subj:
To PhilN55896 Re: Behav Mod
Date:  95-05-23 10:11:59 EDT
From:  KranchFam

Our son is 13 and sometimes I think I should have a taped recording of the
simple chores that he needs to do each day.  I even took the time to write
down a schedule for him.  It didn't work.  Finally we had to do some serious
thinking on how to get him to comply.  Well, we ended up taking away things
that he liked doing,  watching TV,  playing Nintendo, not going outside to
play with his friends.  It took a while but he finally got the message that
he did have to be responsible or he lost out.  He still needs reminders but
they are fewer now.  I think we will always have to be on him to a certain
degree to do his daily routine.  I feel its the nature of ADD for
him to really not realize what's the thing to do.

P.S.  My husband, Nick's father was diagnosed last year with ADD.  He also
needs continuous reminders for daily chores.  It is a life long thing and
does not go away with age.  Getting on some sort of daily schedule does help
but is not the end of all problems.Subj:  Re:To PhilN55896 Re: Behav Mod
Date:  95-05-24 19:02:04 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Well, we ended up taking away things that he liked doing,  watching TV,
playing Nintendo, not going outside to play with his friends.  It took a
while but he finally got the message that he did have to be responsible or he
lost out."

Sure. That's quite reasonable. No one else gets to choose play first.

My daughter tried to duck her Algebra homework. We looked at what was
interfering, and it was ... AOL. So we changed her password, and she doesn't
get back on until she's caught up.Subj:  Re:ADD & Behavior Modification
Date:  95-05-27 08:29:49 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

Dear Phil,
Often "behavior modification" plans need to be changed, tuned up, reorganized
and overhauled with regularity, due the the tendency of children with ADD to
quickly lose interest in "the plan" or the incentives/consequences. They do
not (as with so many other things) sustain the same level of interest or
engagement with the task once they are familiar with it.  Easily aroused
bordom, frustration, lack of novelty and inattention to details only add to
the tendency for ADD children to approach tasks (even one's with positive
outcomes) in an erratic and inconsistent manner. I have found that efforts to
simplify tasks down to the bare bones, organizing them into sequential
step-by-step procedures, and limiting the amount of time required to complete
the task can help make a task "more workable" for some children. However,
things like brushing one's teeth,  doing homework, grooming, and in some
instances eating breakfast, or making lunches, (among the other millions of
activities in a given day) are not by themselves exciting activities with
clear or immediate natural consequences. Hence many people "create" and use
rational/logical consequences, or "cost response" approaches. In these
situations you tag (as SusanS29 as mentioned) a positive or negative
consequence to task completion. Or with Cost-response approaches you can use
time to completion as a factor in determining the amount of the incentive
(i.e., if you can brush your teeth by 8:30 you can read for 15 minutes, but
each minute taken beyond that is a minute lost from reading time. Now, no
approach is "child" proof, available wisdom suggests that creativity, a
willingness to be flexible yet firm, and the capacity to continually refine
your approach may help make things easier.
But, as with all things maintaining a sense of perspective and some degree of
acceptance of the fact that, you will get frustrated by the unrelenting
nature of the task is important. Many of my best, most creative efforts have
"failed" ,and at the very moment I was most in need of sleep and a break.
Clearly behavioral approaches are not a "miracle" approach, they require
thoughtful and consistent parents. In addition, it may be helpful to examine
tools from other parenting approaches. My belief (perhaps mistakenly), is
that often the parent with the most tools in their bag, has the most
flexibility when the situation demands a quick "fix" it" type response, vs. a
larger setting up the plan type response. You raised some challenging
questions here, and I hope that you keep looking until you find what fits
best for you in the way of information

PeterCB55Subj:  Re:ADD & Behavior Modification
Date:  95-05-27 09:54:50 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Peter,

I just want to say that your post on behavior modification was one of the
most concrete, lucid responses I have ever read.  It was great!  I hope you
keep posting!  What an asset you are!Subj:  Re:ADD & Behavior Modification
Date:  95-05-27 19:50:24 EDT
From:  SusanS29

      I was so glad to read your post, Peter. So often I see behavior
modification trotted out as a "fix it" solution for ADD. As you have pointed
out so well, it can be very tricky to use effectively. My own opinion is that
unless a parent already has training in behavior modification, they should
use it under the guidance of, say, a family counselor experienced in its use.
I don't think it's easy to use, and when it's not used well its most likely
result is to go off like a bomb under the parents' noses. Poorly done it can
make a difficult situation worse, not better. (As you know, I'm sure).Subj:
RE: ADD & Behavior Modification
Date:  95-05-30 00:02:18 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

I second Susan's & Ratatat's posting!  I do look forward to Peter's, as well
as Susan's & Ratatat's postings.

I would like to explore this topic a little further.  We have had some
success with certain approaches.  Our problem, however, with behavior
modification is in the execution of the consequence.  The difficultly with
"brushing teeth vs. staying up and reading" is that he'll want to stay up and
watch televison.  When we say that was not the deal, then his impulsivity
takes over.  His outbursts have been ending, as of late, with me struggling
for an hour to get him to bed while he is fighting to find the TV remote that
I have hidden.  TV is certainly a reward, but he is getting bigger and
stronger and we, unfortunately,  are getting older and more tired.  We do
have a the same sense of timely for the "failed" effort---it always comes
when I am in most need of sleep and a break!Subj:  Re:RE: ADD & Behavior
Modificati
Date:  95-05-30 06:44:35 EDT
From:  Ratatat

I can certainly sympathize with your plight.  In our house TV was only a
reward - it was never expected as a given.  And when rewarded it was provided
with a certain amount of time.  Max:  30 minutes, with extentions only for
exceptional behavior or achievement.  If you want to make a point here, you
need to stick to you guns.  If he sees you are consistently determined not to
budge - he will stop.  Discipline involves a lot of self-sacrifice.  There
were many evenings when I skipped a program I wanted to see, just to keep the
TV off and the homework moving forward.  Would you consider simply putting
the TVs in storage for a while to make your point?  And, shouldn't there be a
consequence for the one hour fight to find the remote?  I think so...and it
should be relevant to the behavior somehow...like maybe the TVs disappear for
a week, if you would be willing to do this.  It would certainly get his
attention that you are serious about this, and won't tolerate the battle at
bed time.

Make sure your rule (limits) are clearly stated before hand, then
consistently follow through on the positive consequences and the negative
consequences.  CLEARLY stating beforehand with a consistent response makes a
big difference.Subj:  Re:RE: ADD & Behavior Modificati
Date:  95-05-30 18:41:09 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"His outbursts have been ending, as of late, with me struggling for an hour
to get him to bed while he is fighting to find the TV remote that I have
hidden."

Don't get into a physical battle, and don't hide the remote control.

Throw the circuit breaker that controls the outlet to the TV.

I only had to do it once (grin).

"The difficultly with "brushing teeth vs. staying up and reading" is that
he'll want to stay up and watch televison.  When we say that was not the
deal..."

Don't discuss the "deal" after it's been made. Remind him during a calm time
of what the "deal" is, and tell him that you will not discuss the agreement
with him when it's an issue (i.e., after he hasn't brushed his teeth and
wants to watch TV.)

You can only argue if two speak. In addition, I believe he sees *anything you
say* as an opportunity to reverse the deal. Silence will avoid that.

Be prepared; the first couple of times he will try very hard to bait you.
Don't let him "push your buttons," and don't over-react and start laying on
punishments. *That* will justify his anger in his mind. Just calmly stick to
your guns.

The next day, when he's calm, tell him what you did, and repeat that you
won't discuss terms when he hasn't met his part of the agreement (I'd call it
an agreement rather than a deal).

Yes, you'll go without TV a couple of nights. It might well be worth it (it
was for us!)Subj:  Re:RE: ADD & Behavior Modificati
Date:  95-05-30 22:35:45 EDT
From:  Ratatat

<<Throw the circuit breaker that controls the outlet to the TV.>>

Another excellent example of your incredible common sense!  Great idea!Subj:
Re:ADD & Behavior modification
Date:  95-05-30 22:42:13 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

To Susan & Ratatat:
I believe you have both identified the missing link--as parents, we have to
have the strength to really implement the consequence, such as no TV for a
period of time.  Wish us luck.  We'll keep you posted.Subj:  Re:RE: ADD &
Behavior Modificati
Date:  95-05-31 20:02:22 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Another excellent example of your incredible common sense!  "

Not common sense; desperation to find a way to communicate without words,
since words triggered argument. I have a child who should be a lawyer one day
-- now that it appears she will live to grow up! - grinSubj:  Re:ADD &
Behavior modification
Date:  95-05-31 20:05:33 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"I believe you have both identified the missing link--as parents, we have to
have the strength to really implement the consequence, such as no TV for a
period of time."

Phil, I think it takes more than strength. It takes strength *plus
strategies.*

My personal opinion is that parents who have great difficulty holding their
ground are up against a very challenging child, not that they are inadequate
in some way. These parents need turbo-charged parenting skills, and would do
well to visit a family counselor (one who understands ADD and won't blame
them because they don't have the insight of a Ph.D. counselor with twenty
years' experience, that is.)

I can help my child be comfortable with a mild sore throat from a cold, but
I'd be a fool to try to treat strep without medical help. When it's *so*
tricky to implement the rules, it's time to call in the experts -- the ones
who have seen it all before, who won't be surprised by what the kid just
tried and knows *several* things likely to get it under control.

And it's better to go sooner rather than later.Subj:  Add & Behavior
Modification
Date:  95-05-31 22:48:19 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

Nothing to report on the behavior mod front.  It was a good day.  On the
recommendation to seek additional help, we have been working with a PhD type
for the past 3 years.  He is very good.  We have not heard of anyone being
better.  The best support that we have had has been for the CHADD support
groups. Subj:  Re:Add & Behavior Modification
Date:  95-06-01 01:06:04 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Is this Ph.D. type (counselor?) helping you tweak your beh. mod. program? If
so, ask him or her to help you develop some neutral (hardest thing on Earth!
- grin) strategies for the inevitable confrontations.

When your child doesn't manage to bend the rules, he or she will then stage a
first-class game of "Uproar." If successful in causing to over-react, that
will justify the child's actions in his or her mind (doesn't matter what you
think; it's self-defense from the child's point of view).

The only way to manage both the end run around the rules and the uproar that
follows if you manage to block it is neutrality, total calmness, disinterest
in the emotional fallout.

"I HATE YOU!" response: "I'm sorry," not 'YOU CAN'T TALK TO YOUR MOTHER THAT
WAY! I WON'T STAND FOR IT!" etc.Subj:  Re:Add & Behavior Modification
Date:  95-06-01 01:19:48 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

To: PhilN55896
Your inquiry regarding ADD & behavior management efforts raise challenging
questions. From what I can gather, you are pursuing information and
strategies from several different sources and that is a critical first step.
In the spirit of places to "go" for other ideas, I might also suggest that
you consider two other routes. First, surveying every parent and father you
know about bedtime routines, and second checking out a few additional books.
For example, I have found that by talking with parents regularly about
situations that I am struggling with and asking about what they are "doing" I
can (with a little luck) come across a few
strategies that I may be able to fit to "my own situation". .  Often, what I
learn, isn't particularly new, it is the way in which other's frame in idea
(i.e., working with difficult children at bedtime) ,or how they put ideas
into action steps that is "fresh" in comparison to my few and only marginally
successful strategies of the last few evenings.  I also learn alot by asking
"what works",  particularly from parents with ADD/ODD children. I am often
struck by the creativity out there sometimes in the midst of the most dismal
looking of situations. . For example, one mother I knew, recently put a new
slant on the old idea (i.e., the incentive), by drawing up and making copies
of "mom" money, in the form of large psuedo dollar bills, replete with a
drawing of "mom" in the place where G. Washington's picture usually goes and
including the phrase "in mom we trust" that the children could turn in at the
end of the week for real treats or money. Another idea, is to make every
effort to simplify what has to be done from the point in the evening when you
tell a child that they need to begin getting ready for bed till the time they
fall asleep.  That is reduce it down to the essential routines, (i.e., put
away toys, turn off the TV etc, then get into PJ's, do teeth, and into bed).
Once in bed, then they can do something quiet like read, play a game, or tell
stories etc). Children, and especially those with ADD/ODD have trouble
inhibiting emotional responses and tolerating frustration when they are
tired. Bedtimes are prime times for poorly controlled anger outbursts and
tantrums. Hence the emphasis on bedtime routines that are short and simple..
In addition, parental soothing and quiet time with one parent before falling
asleep is important (as much for the parent as for the child). ADD children
often need help learning to "let go" of the day.  Without endorsing any
specific  approach,  I have found (and I am sure others can suggest
additional resources) books such as Lynn Clark's SOS for Parents, and Susan
Kurchinka's  "Raising the Spirited Child", or "Discipline without Tears", may
contain usefull ideas. From a different perspective, Stanley Greenspan's
"Playground Politics" is ineresting. It's value lies in the emphasis on the
importance of developing an emotionally positive relationship without cutting
corners when working to elicit new behavior's from children (something I
think often gets forgotten in the focus on behavior change "techniques"). One
suggestion I have found helpful, was the notion that if you are going to do
"change work" on a specific area of concern,  that you also provide
proportional increases in the amount the positive time spent with a child.
Thus, an upper limit to "change" work is built into the system, and that is
also important to bear in mind. In a given day, children and parents need to
be mindful when upper limits have  been reached, and effortful coping (by
all) needs to be replaced by soothing and settling activities,  sometimes
alone and sometimes with others. For example, many children (including my
own) rely heavily upon their "stuffed" animals for support, especially when
their parents are demanding and unsympathetic (e.g., requiring teeth to be
brushed). Sorry this got to be of such a length,. I hope this can add to our
discussion.
PeterCB55Subj:  The Uneducated School
Date:  95-06-01 07:05:08 EDT
From:  ACTG CNSLT

My eight year old son has had a constant struggle in school since
kindergarten.  Each of his teachers has referred to him as "developmentally
young".  Because he was a July baby, I accepted this for the first two years.


This year I read an article on ADD.  It was a perfect description of my son.
Very soon after that the school contacted me suggesting resource room
education.  The very small amount of ADD information I had  read indicated
resource rooms covered up ADD by eliminating any distractions and did nothing
to help children deal with ADD.

The school  did agree  to complete a ADD test, but only after we refused
learning disability testing  until it was done.  My son's Pediatrician
reviewed the tests and indicated he felt my son showed strong ADD traits.
He could not make a diagnosis however, because the tests  were not complete.

The second problem I have encountered  is the lack of education about ADD in
the school system.  The teacher rolls her eyes when we mention ADD and the
principal indicated he thought ADD was a parents excuse for their child's
poor school performance.  We feel their attitude is that we should stop
trying to find an excuse and crack down on  our son's school work.

Any suggestions or school war victory stories?Subj:  Re:Add & Behavior
Modification
Date:  95-06-01 07:14:13 EDT
From:  Ratatat

<<"I HATE YOU!" response: "I'm sorry," not 'YOU CAN'T TALK TO YOUR MOTHER
THAT WAY! I WON'T STAND FOR IT!" etc.>>

I think we have all heard this one!  I have friends who burst into tears over
it!

When my kids have said this, my pat answer is: " I am sorry you feel that
way, but my job isn't to have you love me, my job is to keep your safe,
healthy, and to teach your how to do certain things so you can survive
without me!"

The first time I did this their little mouths just snapped shut.  I don't
think either one of mine ever said it more than twice!Subj:  Re:The
Uneducated School
Date:  95-06-01 07:22:02 EDT
From:  Ratatat

The very best thing you can do is to educate yourself first.  This will help
your separate the wheat from the shaff.  You should think about contacting
CHADD (you probably have a local chapter) and check out their library.  A
good resourse is the CHADD Educator's Manual.

Once you understand ADD better yourself and the things the schools are
required to do, you can start insisting on getting what is needed for your
child.

I sounds too, like you need to have a really thorough evaluation done on your
child for ADD and LD.  Can you tell use what testing measure and questions
they used up to now?Subj:  Re:The Uneducated School
Date:  95-06-01 20:21:37 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"The teacher rolls her eyes when we mention ADD and the  principal indicated
he thought ADD was a parents excuse for their child's poor school
performance."

Buy them a good book or two. CHADD's "EDUCATOR'S MANUAL" is an excellent
place to start, and it's only $10.

In addition I think you should get LD testing as well, because ADD and LD are
often seen together. Even if your child does not have a learning disability
you'll still get valuable information about his strengths and weaknesses (we
all have them). He can learn to capitalize on his strengths, and learn coping
mechanisms for his weaknesses, which are probably aggravated by the ADD.Subj:
Re:Add & Behavior Modification
Date:  95-06-01 20:23:13 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"When my kids have said this, my pat answer is: " I am sorry you feel that
way, but my job isn't to have you love me, my job is to keep your safe,
healthy, and to teach your how to do certain things so you can survive
without me!"

I have said essentially that, but not in the heat of the moment, when they
are only listening to find another chink in your armor. :)Subj:  Add &
Behavior Modification
Date:  95-06-01 23:32:56 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

To Peter,
        I always look forward to hearing from you!   Please, do not worry
about the length of your posting because we do read every word.  Thank you
for the reading recommendations-I hope to be off to the book store this
weekend.
       Your observation about ADD kids having "trouble inhibiting emotional
responses and tolerating frustration" when they are tired is particularly
interesting.    My son's inability to sustain output and deal with the
fatigue and resulting frustrations  makes us feel, at times, cruel to force a
"behavior modification" approach.  Doesn't  behavior mod frustrate a child
further when the real source of the the problem is the neurological deficit?
Secondly, what is "ODD"?
Subj:  The Eneducated School
Date:  95-06-01 23:39:16 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

Let me share some of the experience that we gained over the years with our 8
year old son.
        First, read Dr. Larry Silver's "The Misunderstood Child".  It
provided the best overview about learning disabilities and ADD that we have
ever found.
       Secondly, if you can afford it, get a independent, comprehensive
learning evaluation with a high profile staff.  This evaluation, can be
shared with the school when you want.  It also  puts you on an even playing
field with the school when they start to "roll their eyes."
       Thirdly, despite the respect that you might have for your
pediatrician, unless he is an expert in neurology and ADD/LD, he is only
guessing.  Even though the school personnel's may have the best intentions,
they neither have the credentials or qualifications to make a medical
diagnosis about ADD.   Unfortunately, we listened to our pediatrician too
long before getting the appropriate evaluation.  I suggest that you find the
best neurologist and/or psychiatrist who is well practiced with ADD & LD  to
do your own independent  evaluation.  This comes in particularly handy when
the school start claiming that your should "crack down" or that  your son is
"emotionally impaired".
        Fourth, keep written records of everything.  Get written reports from
all the doctors and specialists.  Write down your experiences about your son
and keep a record of all conversations with the school.  It is good for the
soul and puts things into perspective.  Time  and emotions will cloud your
memory and the school's memory.  Also, AOL has been a great help for me.
       Finally,  try to maintain a positive attitude.  Dealing with all the
issues is difficult.                   Keep posting!

Subj:  Re:The Eneducated School
Date:  95-06-01 23:41:21 EDT
From:  Ratatat

To order the CHADD Educator's Manual, call their publisher (Casat) at
1-800-545-5583.Subj:  Re:Add & Behavior Modification
Date:  95-06-01 23:45:36 EDT
From:  PhilN55896

The Ph.D is psychologist.  We have been using him to help  deal with the
emotion and self esteem losses that my son has to deal with as a result of
the ADD and school.  He also provides  counseling to us.  Behavior mod has
not been our highest priority, but we know we have to do more with it.  Subj:
Re:Add & Behavior Modification
Date:  95-06-02 19:33:14 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Doesn't  behavior mod frustrate a child further when the real source of the
the problem is the neurological deficit?"

The trick with behavior modification isn't to create new behaviors. It's to
*increase* behaviors he already shows. So... when well done, behavior
modification isn't cruel, and doesn't put undue pressure on the child.

The problem is that it's most-often used quite badly. A large number of
children perceive it as coercive. When that happens is isn't really behavior
modification at all, and will cause more problems than it was ever intended
to solve.Subj:  Re:The Eneducated School
Date:  95-06-02 19:34:25 EDT
From:  SusanS29

That is all *excellent* advice. I think that sometimes taking out a loan is
worth it to get a good, independent evaluation (as you say, high-profile),
one the school cannot ignore.Subj:  Re:Add & Behavior Modification
Date:  95-06-02 19:36:18 EDT
From:  SusanS29

You don't have to do behavior modification to have a behavioral plan. To tell
you the truth with this child I'm not sure behavior modification would be my
first choice, because it involves so many judgments (did he meet the mark or
not?)

Some kids just don't do well on behavior mod. In addition, behavior mod can
only target one or two very specific behaviors at at time.

However, if you find a new way to interact with him when things get tense --
one that ends his attempts to do end runs around the standards -- you'll get
results much sooner.Subj:  RadCain-Free Services Provided
Date:  95-06-03 09:07:47 EDT
From:  SELLRFINAN

Your story brought tears to my eyes.  I also have a son with ADHD and I know
how hard it is for him to do certain things no matter how hard or much he
tries.  He will be 4 the end of July.  Since he was 15 months old I had
suspected a problem with his speech.  He lost any words he began speaking
altogether.  All other words came very late.  No, we did not encourage the
point and grunt senerio that would delay his speech.  I was very active with
reading and encouraging his growth.  I also noticed other delays in fine and
gross motor areas.  I did alot of reading of the normal developmental ranges.
I allow approximately 3 months outside these ranges before I began to worry.
Finally, I called my local county's disability evaluation unit and found out
as part of our tax dollars, I could have my son evaluated FREE OF CHARGE from
a place I choose.  These programs are Federally and State funded, THEY ARE
AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE. I would like to tell you that in most states, you can
have your child diagnosed for any suspected disability FREE OF CHARGE.
Needless to say, my son was 8 months delayed in speech, 6 months fine and
gross motor areas and as I and my husband and the evaluators noted my son was
also highly distractible and overly active (yes, he was only a little over 2
when he was evaluated but there is a limit as to what is acceptable and
normal). He is in a Special Education Preschool Program since November 1,
1993 of my choosing FREE OF CHARGE. My son was also evaluated on my and the
school's recommendation for ADHD by a neurologist.  Again, I chose the doctor
and it was paid by the county/state.  He has done remarkably well.  He is
just about at age appropriate level for speech, fine and gross motor areas.
However, the quality in which these are done still need much work. And of
course, there is continual behavior modification in place at school and at
home.  You can call my son a milder case of ADHD, but I credit that to the
early detection and attention to his disabilities.  He again has been
authorized for Special Ed Preschool for the summer and next September.  As he
goes onto grade school he will probably be placed in an inclusionary setting
(Regular Ed with Special Ed) because no matter how far he has come along, it
is necessary to Maintain this for any child with ADHD or any chronic
disability or they can regress.  This is why summer school is necessary.
PLEASE don't thing I am being fed this information from anyone such as
doctors or the school. And believe me I do have confidence in my doctors and
school.  All of this has been from my own informational research.  REMEMBER
AS A PARENT YOU ARE YOUR CHILD'S BEST AVOCATE.  YOU NEED TO CHECK OUT THIS
INFORMATION YOURSELF TO BECOME AS EDUCATED AS POSSIBLE ABOUT ANYTHING THAT
CONCERNS YOUR CHILD.

Did you know also that for any child with a disability, you can get two sets
of text books, one for home and one for school and you can also receive text
books on audio tapes (well, at least in New York).  This is perfect for
children with ADHD especially since there is a focusing problem, they tend to
forget to bring their books home and they tend to have trouble concentrating
on reading and/or processing what they read. They do much better with verbal
instruction.

FOR ALL US OUT THERE. PLEASE GET AS MUCH INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE SO YOU CAN
BETTER UNDERSTAND OUR CHILDREN'S DISABILITIES. GO DON'T BE AFRAID TO CHALLENG
AND ASK QUESTIONS (NO MATTER HOW MINOR OR STUPID YOU THINK IT MAY BE).

CONTACT YOUR LOCAL COUNTY OR STATE ON DISABILITIES FOR EVALUATIONS AND
EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS AVAILABLE.

AND ABOVE ALL GET INVOLVED IN YOUR SEPTA's (Special Education PTA),
C.H.A.D.D. etc.  These groups can help inform you and get you going in the
right direction besides the support they provide.

I apologize for being so long winded, but I just felt it's important to let
you and everyone know what is available to them out there and what there
right are about these services and programs.

Thank you

Darlene Kavitt
Parent Subj:  Re:RadCain-Free Services Provide
Date:  95-06-03 09:33:31 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Did you know also that for any child with a disability, you can get two sets
of text books, one for home and one for school and you can also receive text
books on audio tapes (well, at least in New York). "

Well, it isn't quite this simple. For instance, an extra set of books is a
considerable expense for the school district. Children with ADHD aren't
*automatically* entitled to any one intervention: they're entitled to the
interventions that help *them* cope.

For instance, your child might not need *all* the books at home. Our daughter
forgot one with great consistency, and the school provided us with that one
book. For many an extra set of books works well, but it might not be what any
one individual child with ADD needs. The interventions need to be based on
the child's needs.

Many children with ADD don't do particularly well with "talking books"
because it's hard for most people with ADD to listen well. In addition, I
don't think children should move too quickly to that sort of intervention,
especially if it's accompanied by relaxing of efforts to teach the child to
read better.

One good compromise is to have the child read along with the tape... Maybe
only for selected paragraphs. Sometimes that increases reading skills
dramatically in a short period of time in older students.Subj:  Re:The
Uneducated School
Date:  95-06-03 20:05:01 EDT
From:  LTroudy

I am not sure that I would label the  school as uneducated, as I would the
teacher (s) who may work in it.   As a special Ed. teacher I do not claim to
have all the answers on ADD nor would I ever begin to, especially since it is
a neurological disoreder and the neurologists can't agree.   The cover up
educators have is their way to let you know that they do not know any more
about it than you do and honestly have little acsess to information on it
even if they did want it.   Developing a positive team approach with the
schools regarding " understanding ADD" is certiainly valuable for all.  Trust
me, you no sooner think you have the ADD profile down and the next student
you get has it and looks NOTHING like the other ones.  I highly and I mean
highly recommend going ahead with a full educational assessment.  How you can
treat a childs learning problems with technically a medical diagnosis and not
know how the child learns best ( and worst) is beyond me.  If I had my way we
would have this evaluation as a standard part of education for all children .
I have a gifted child with large variations in his learning styles.  I also
have an LD child with ADD, and knowing how to accsess him intellectually has
made a tremendous difference.  I have eliminated soooo much of his
frustration and anxiety because I know how he learns. ADD kids already have
way to much of this already! This is the most valuable piece of information
you can give to his teacher.  How is his memory if he sees it, or only if he
hears it?  Are ther problems with integration ( some ADD children learn best
with kinesthetic ( touch) some  ADD kids become so distracted and
overstimulated they can't absorb anything.)   The education system is one
component, home/environment another, and medical/neurological another.
That's all before you put the complexity of all the personalities.  Get all
the information you can.  No matter what the evaluation results are they can
not do anything with that information without your permission and if you were
in total disagreement you could have it purged from his file.  The more we
ALL know the better.  Look at the child not as my child - your child (
depending on who has him for the moment ) but as OUR child. Learn with the
schools and let the schools learn with you. Subj:  Re: Add & Behavior
Modification
Date:  95-06-04 09:25:45 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

To: PhilM55896
In response to your concern about  feeling sometimes "cruel" when faced with
the possibility of forcing a "behavior" mod approach, on a child.  I would
suggest that to "force" any technique can increase the chances that you will
simply escalate the conflict and reduce the available opportunities for real
learning in that moment. Behavior modification techniques when applied well
(my opinion), are fit carefully into specific situations (not used for every
type of problem behavior that happens to occur), are developed after
reasonable and responsible efforts to understand what the key patterns of
behavior are, reflect an understanding of those factors that make the
situation better/worse,  respect the intelligence (read personal strengths
and weaknesses) of both parent and child, (are decidedly NOT mechanical,
although, often they are presented as wrenches to be used in this fashion),
involve parent and child in collaborative problem solving (usually before the
conflict emerges), and DO NOT involve inflexible and ofttimes ill-fitting
"consequences" (read as jargon for punishments) to be used under the guise of
"this is what you get because you did or did not do "behavior XYZ".

Behavior modification approaches represent, at least to me, a rather
optimistic, but "realistic"  set of principles regarding human behavior and
learning. This is the "thinking" or theoretical part, that holds that in
general (certainly not in all cases, or for that matter with all children in
all situations) that people, both big and small, tend to avoid activities
that result in negative outcomes and pursue those things that lead to more
positive outcomes  (however you wish to define that). However, before any
interventions should even be considered it is essential to carefully observe
a child's patterns of actions over time so that you become familiar with the
things that contribute to the occurrance of certain problem behaviors as well
as those things that tend to reduce it's presentation. For example, for
children with ADD/ODD (stands for Oppositional Defiant Disorder),  problem
behavior (sorry for the vague language)  often happens with greater intensity
and frequency under the certain circumstances. For example, when they are
"rushed" and "pressured", when loss of control is threatened, when parents
become too emotionally "involved" in stopping "negative"  behavior,  whenkids
are tired, when (for whatever reason) their interpersonal radar is set for
"black and white only" (i.e., the only good parent is the parent who agrees
with me), when they feel they are "owed" something,  when they are operating
with only a partial picture of the actual situation (see SusanS29's note from
some time ago regarding ADD and lack of discrimination skills when processing
information). From my view, alot of good can come from efforts to learn about
just these kinds of factors, whether or not anyone wishes to go further. In
short, learning to really "see" patterns of behavior takes time, resolve,
willingness to see your part in the "drama" and to honestly recognize the
possibility that many "seemingly" little things can help grease the skids,
right into our more familiar, yet unwanted encounters. To me this is the most
important part in developing effective "behavioral parenting" strategies;
unfortunately, much of what I and others were first drawn to was the
possibility of effortless techniques for controlling disturbing behavior. A
low cost, low investment  method for handling disturbing behavior. My guess
is that skillful parents are careful and insightful observers, who learn to
think before they act, regardless of the particular method of "acting" they
choose to study.
PeterCB55Subj:  Re:The Uneducated School
Date:  95-06-04 09:49:05 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Trust me, you no sooner think you have the ADD profile down and the next
student you get has it and looks NOTHING like the other ones."

I think that's one of the hardest things for teachers. We can list traits,
etc., but those traits are expressed within the personality of the child, his
or her other strengths and weaknesses, the milleau of family and society's
influence and the enviornment of the classroom. Under those circumstances, we
have to look at those list of traits as abstract guidelines that will
translate differently into each child with ADD.

The same thing is true -- only to a *slightly* lesser extent -- with learning
disabilities. I worked with many teachers who understood children with
reading difficulties, or grapho-motor weaknesses, but who then got an LD
child who could read but had great difficulty in math and assumed the child
was lazy and *really* could do better in math if he would just try. After
all, look at his reading....

"If I had my way we would have this [full educational] evaluation as a
standard part of education for all children ."

You're absolutely right. (But you knew that -- grin)Subj:  Re: Add & Behavior
Modification
Date:  95-06-04 09:51:15 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"... to "force" any technique can increase the chances that you will simply
escalate the conflict and reduce the available opportunities for real
learning in that moment."

He's right, folks (no surprise, right)! One of the most common problems with
behavior modification as often used.Subj:  Re:Looking for Research Studies
Date:  95-06-04 15:52:25 EDT
From:  Bethacd

ADD is a hard thing to determine.  However, ther must be assessors outside of
psychologists that can determine this disorder.  Your son sounds like a
classic case of ADD.  Parents always put the blame on themselves, but many do
not know that they are not the cause.  ADD can be biological or emotional,
but this does not necessarily stem from a parent's inconsistency.  Check out
the AOL support groups for ADD ADHD; they can help you find info about the
disorder and about assessors.  Use your local yellow pages under learning
disablities or behavior disorders.  There may be clinics or doctors near you
that specialize in this and can determine the proper diagnosis for your son.


Until then, continue to be as consistent in your rules and consequences as
you can be.  Also, give your son quiet time away from extrasensory stimuli.
These can cause overload and distress, which may result in constant
non-focus.  Sometimes just reading a book will train a child to focus.

Most of all decide what rules are most important for you during his play time
and what are consquencces you can continually live with.  This may help you
and your son deal with the problems presented daily.  Subj:  Re:Looking for
Research Studies
Date:  95-06-04 18:03:53 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"ADD can be biological or emotional..."

Not really. When the bais is emotional, it's an emotional problem that causes
some of the traits we see in ADD, such as distractibility. But if it has an
emotional cause (not the same as an emotional overlay) -- it's not ADD.Subj:
re:ADD and Beh. Mod
Date:  95-06-04 21:33:48 EDT
From:  Puns

Don't fight with your son over the TV...lock it up.  Go to the hardware store
and find those really tiny tiny locks...they will fit in the large hole of
the plug of your TV.  They usually come with 2 keys...and you can lock the tv
anytime you want to. (If you're not willing to get rid of it, like I wasn't).
Also, if your child has Oppositional Defiant Disorder as well, may I suggest
my favorite behavior program...

Set up the behaviors you hate ahead of time, set up the consequences, and
explain that when this behavior occurs, this is the consequence.  It's his
choice what he wants.  Putting the ball in his court leads to only one
argument...my son says"THIS IS NOT A TANTRUM" (The behavior I truly can't
stand).  My response is that I am the definer...

After a year of our system, locking the TV, not talking to him when he
continues to argue, and a wonderful medical professional who works with us
closely...life is almost what could be called normal around here...most of
the time.Subj:  RE:  The Uneducated School
Date:  95-06-11 16:06:37 EDT
From:  ACTG CNSLT

Thanks for all the suggestions and information.  I am ordering the CHADD
Educator's Manual for the school system.  Hopefully, they will use the
opportunity to become more familiar with ADD.  Subj:  Re: School
discipline!!!
Date:  95-06-28 04:04:07 EDT
From:  ElliRC

Need advise. Son has ADD, dylexia, aphasia and his speech is difficult to
understand...still...he is 11. Goes to a special ed private school. Reads on
1st-2nd grade level (math at 2-3)...he loves science, puzzles, logic
problems, mechanical, wood and art projects. He has a temper. Short one. Kids
tease, call him a "retard" and because of his speech, is dumped on more...We
have a few time outs. He doesn't like injustices. When a kid is getting hurt,
he becomes the victims protector. However, when someone hurts him...boy what
a fight. Always gives to the poor, will give shirt off his back. Even has
sold one of his games to get me a birthday present. Very loveable, can
"stretch" the truth and is quite a story teller in school too! It is hard
sometimes to tell a tale from reality. But he almost always comes out with
what is reality with me. I'm trying to get him to record and write out his
"tales" to give to people, maybe even market them, rather than "wrap" them
into real situations (a future politician?) A week ago he went on the school
picnic in a state park with his school (14 kids). A boy threatened to dump
water on him and my son jump on him. A teacher had to pull him off (and
physically hurt my son). My son ran into the water (against advice), HE SWORE
(famous last words) (recent language he picked up from the street of NY), the
teacher was angry and "lightly" kicked him to get going (that is the
teacher's version). My son ran into the woods. The director and teachers let
him have so-called "time-out" in a state park for 1-1/2 hours. They didn't do
anything until another student spotted my son. The SAME teacher that
"originally" hurt him by the water and the other kid incident, was SENT to
get my son. My son saw him coming and ran further into the woods (my son said
he was scared of this teacher and ran). The teacher caught up with my son
with another student behind him. My son ran over to a picnic barbeque pole
and held on. According to my son and this other student, my son resisted. The
teacher tried to pull my son off the pole by the leg. When my son fought, the
teacher kicked my son in the hand to get him to let go. The teacher then
grabbed my son and dragged him 20 feet before my son got up on his own feet.
My son was to spend the night with the director's family with the other kids
which he did. I was NEVER called about what happened. When my son came home,
he was heavily bruised.
His upper arms had the hand prints of an adult with the thumb print by the
elbow. His ribs had bruises, on his tail bone, on his legs, etc. My son was
hysterial when he came home, shaking. My husband took him to our DR. Dr.
wanted to report it to the police. However, he did send him to the ER for
documentation and pictures.
   THIS DIRECTOR states that the teacher was really saving my son's life from
being lost in the woods, and if the teacher kicked him to get him to come
back, I should be thankful that the teacher.  I know my son can tell tales,
so I called other kids and parents, the stories confirmed with what my own
son said (he left out some details), but all agree that my son was hurt.
Director said he knew my son was hurt, but didn't see anything, nor did my
son tell him all the details. My son is also afraid of the director (he saw
the director hit his OWN son once)...and this teacher drag the director's son
one day too! My son has since been waking up each night screaming. Great for
my nerves.
    This director called tonight to "discuss" how I'm making a mountain out
of a mole hill. Then this director said I should concentrate on my SON'S
BEHAVIOR and HOW WRONG MY SON WAS, rather than have a hang up on a teacher
"kicking" my son!!! In essense, this director implied that if I made a big
DEAL of this situation, HE WOULD TELL THE AUTHORITIES THAT MY SON HAS
COMPLAINED TO HIM THAT HIS FATHER HAD BEAT HIM!!! I stated if this was so,
then he should have reported same & checked. Never was any abuse, just the
oppposite, too much liberty! Any advise out there? [e-mail]:  Re:
School discipline!!!
Date:  95-06-28 09:08:55 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Whoa!

There is never any reason/excuse for physically manhandling a child like that
short of stopping them from running into traffic or jumping of a dangerour
high place.

Yes, you probably do need to help your son work on his impulsive responses to
teasing, however the staff of this school had an obligation too, to work on
this.  Doesn't seem they did.

I would follow your doctor's advise, personally, and call a lawyer.Subj:  Re:
School discipline!!!
Date:  95-06-28 22:11:16 EDT
From:  SusanS29

This child's language problems may well be aggravating his behavioral traits.
Not proficient with language, he is likely to literally "act out."

Counseling where he can role-play solutions to social situations might help
him considerably. He can be taught the language (or acceptable alternatives)
to handle social stresses.Subj:  Social skills training
Date:  95-06-29 00:02:05 EDT
From:  LCFitz

My seven-year-old son was just diagnosed with ADHD by a pediatric
neurologist.  We are about to start him on medication (Ritalin), and the
doctor has also encouraged us to get him involved in a "social skills group"
to help him to work on his (faltering) social skills, especially with peers.
Does anyone have any advice on how to go about finding a group like this in
particular, or a good counselor in general?  The doctor said that, at this
time, "therapy" is not necessary, but that some kind of skill building might
be helpful....

I would also like to know if you have any suggestions for us regarding what
to expect when we initially try the medication.  My son will be starting
day-camp (2 days per week) beginning next Monday, and I am wondering if it
makes sense to start the medication so close to the start of camp.  My son is
really looking forward to going to this camp (new to him), and I am concerned
that he get off to a good start there as well.  If I had had my way, he would
have begun the medication a week and a half ago, but we were waiting to
recieve an information packet and prescription by mail, so....  Here we are,
5 days before his summer activities begin.

 As you might imagine, I am hopeful and worried about what this new treatment
may bring, and what the future holds.  In a sense, it was a great relief to
get the diagnosis of ADHD, but now we are beginning a new chapter....  I
would appreciate any words of wisdom from those of you who have been there.
My son is beautiful and brilliant, and I want to see him happy, successful,
and feeling competent and lovable.Subj:  Re: School discipline!!!
Date:  95-06-29 02:02:33 EDT
From:  ElliRC

Analysing my son's problems--from the school source--is that he personally
didn't like his director (whom he saw mishandling another student when he
first started the program)--it had no respect for him any longer. I really
think that my son's behavior, in the director always giving him time-out--was
a way my son manpulated the director to GET time-outs. Having worked with
autistic and downs children in the past, I found that children know what
buttons to push to get their way. If we give a child time-out it should be
because the child wants to be with YOU more, thus will change his behavior.
In summary, I feel my son's behavior
to get time-out at school reflect the fact HE WANTS to be away from this
program and director. Perhaps, as they say, things happen for a reason, we
are looking at other programs, including home-schooling, via computer, Parrot
software, ect.
   My son's home progress and sensitivity is overwhelming at times. He has
figured out complicated situations and helped others in ways and emotionally
we didn't know he was capable of. We feel know that the school just didn't
know how to handle this kid and we were lead to believe that they could meet
his needs!
   Example: he doesn't like Disney films, says they conflict with family
values and morality. Didn't like Snow White "living" with seven little men.
Didn't like the death scene in Bambi and tried to cut it out of the tape
himself. Cinderella, he said, portrayed a horrible view of step families.
   He also has the deep conviction of helping others. He is going next week
to camp where there are many developmentally delayed children and he really
wants to go to help--like last year, he volunteered to help with the others.
He really enjoys giving of himself and dislikes injustices.
Is this common with LD kids?Subj:  Re:Social skills training
Date:  95-06-29 11:52:52 EDT
From:  Ratatat

<<My seven-year-old son was just diagnosed with ADHD by a pediatric
neurologist.  We are about to start him on medication (Ritalin), and the
doctor has also encouraged us to get him involved in a "social skills group"
to help him to work on his (faltering) social skills, especially with peers.
Does anyone have any advice on how to go about finding a group like this in
particular, or a good counselor in general?  The doctor said that, at this
time, "therapy" is not necessary, but that some kind of skill building might
be helpful....>>

This is very good advise.  I know of only one group in my area, for instance,
that is doing this.  It is being run by a child/adolesent psychologist and it
thought of very highly.

Perhaps you could get some referrals from the diagnosing doctor.  Also, are
you a member of CHADD yet?  A local CHADD chapter might be able to help you
with referrals too. CHADD stands for Children and Adults with Attention
Deficit Disorder and is a national organization.  You can check your local
listings to see if you have a local chapter, or you can contact the
headquarters and get membership information from them:  1-305-587-3700.

<<I would also like to know if you have any suggestions for us regarding what
to expect when we initially try the medication.  My son will be starting
day-camp (2 days per week) beginning next Monday, and I am wondering if it
makes sense to start the medication so close to the start of camp. >>

Could you tell us a bit more?  What are the hours that the camp is in session
each day?  And how many weeks does the camp run?  Also, what dosage and
dosage schedule has the doctor suggested at this point.
Personally, I would attempt starting the medication with camp going on.  The
setting would provide you with another environment to see how the medication
works.  Do you think that someone at the camp is saavy enough to help observe
your child's response to medication?  It is helpful is someone can guage your
child's response towards the end of a dose and before the next one as a way
to help adjust the timing for maximum benefit.

<< As you might imagine, I am hopeful and worried about what this new
treatment may bring, and what the future holds.  In a sense, it was a great
relief to get the diagnosis of ADHD, but now we are beginning a new
chapter...>>

You are extremely fortunate to have the knowledge of your child's ADD at the
age he is.  The outlook is very bright for children with involved, caring,
knowledgable parents, especially if they learn early about the ADD.  You
child is really lucky to have you as parents.  BRAVO!

Remember, however, that medication is just one part of the treatment.  You
need to develop an overall plan.  ADD effects chilren all their waking
hours...so their need to be assisted with a plan all the time.

What the medication does, once the dosage, timing, etc. are maximized, is
help your child become more *available* to their environment to learn from it
academically, socially, etc...  How they learn then is up to the child, the
parents and the schools.

CHADD has wonderful resources.  You probably would be happy to have the CHADD
Educator's Manual.  There is valuable information in their for parents as
well as schools.  Why don't you get two.  One for you and one of the school?
They only cost about $10.  They can be ordered from CHADD distributers
directly (Casat) at 1-800-545-5583.

Also, you might benefit from calling NICHCY (National Information Center for
Children and Youth with Disabilities), and request a State resource list from
them for your state, and any other pertinent information they can provide on
ADD.  They have lots, and it is free. 1-800-695-0285.

You will learn about the federal laws too that exist to guarantee your child
receive an appropriate education.  In short they are:  IDEA (Individuals with
Disabilities Education Act), Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1975,
and the ADA (American's with Disabilities Act).

continued........................Subj:  Re:Social skills training
Date:  95-06-29 11:57:04 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Continued................

Through these acts the schools are required to develop an IEP (Individualized
Education Plan) with you, the parents.  You have the right to accept or
refuse.  IEPs are usually developed with a team at the school, and with the
parents.  They are intended to provide your child with concrete goals and
realistic ways to ahieve them that with strengthen your child's ability to
access his education.

Another really excellent book I would encourage you to have (it can help with
developing the IEP from you angle, plus it will help you in your education
about ADD), is:

TAMING THE DRAGONS:  Real Help for Real School Problems by Susan Setley.  You
can order this book from Bradburn at 1-800-782-2490.  It is about $20 and
worth every penny plus some!

Good luck.  There is lots of company for you in your next step of learning
about ADD.Subj:  Re: School discipline!!!
Date:  95-06-29 12:30:04 EDT
From:  Ratatat

You child sound like he has many exceptional strengths. It is great that you
have identified them, and now can use them as the foundation for further
growth!

Many children with ADD have a hypersensitivity of some kind.  Often it is
tactile, like they can't stand to have seams on their socks hitting their
toes, or the tags in clothes bug them, or they insist on wearing the
underwear inside out to avoide chaffing from the stitching.  Another
sensitivity can be extreme empathy or high morality.  My daughter is the
empathetic type.  Sometimes is has made her life extremely hard because she
picks up on many subtlies that even adults miss, and she can be upset by
them.  My son is what I call "Dudley Do-Right," and he has had a hard time
with his peer groups because of his determination to be rule-bound.

The trick is to capitalize on these sensitivities and translate them into
strengths for the children.  I sounds like you already know this though.Subj:
Re:Social skills training
Date:  95-06-29 18:52:49 EDT
From:  SusanS29

since Ritalin is so fast-acting, five days is *plenty of time* for him to try
the Ritalin and for you to gauge his reaction to it. If effective, it could
make camp a much more positive experience for him.Subj:  Thanks for advice...
Date:  95-06-30 22:32:13 EDT
From:  LCFitz

SusanS29, Ratatat, et al:  Thank you for the information, support and advice.
Although I just posted my first message to this "forum" a few days ago, I
have spent many hours reading your postings over the past months, and I have
to let you know how helpful it has been.  I admire how educated and
articulate you are on the subject of ADD, and mostly how generous you all are
with your knowledge and time.  As a parent going through this for the first
time, wondering if I'm making the right decisions, etc., it sure helps to
know I can ask someone questions who understands, and has "been there."  I
will keep you posted on our progress, and, I'm sure, will be back with more
questions.  :)Subj:  Re:Looking for Research Studies
Date:  95-07-08 14:52:23 EDT
From:  JudyKar

To:  EDEBOHLS
I deperately need information on the group sessions on building/dealing with
social skills training that your son participated in for my 7 1/2 year old
ADD son.  How would I locate a similar counseling firm in the Houston, TX
vicinity?  My son is exceptionally gifted and highly ADD, but the ADD is
primarily manifested in his ability to maintain appropriate behavior in
outside environments and situations; like excessive and loud talking and
needing to dominate every situation.
If you can post information on how to locate a program or a transcript or
synopsis of your son's program it would be a huge help to me and my son.Subj:
Re:Looking for Research Studies
Date:  95-07-08 19:30:46 EDT
From:  Ratatat

I can't offer you exactly what you are seeking, but might I suggest that you
contact the diagnosing professional and ask for referrals, then call the
referrals, and ask for more?  A child psychologist is a likely person to
conduct these group programs....the ones here do it privately.

Maybe the school counselor would know of a psychologist who runs one?
Thought these group programs are very needed, there are too many of
them...sort of a newer idea.  You may be facing lots of phoning, but it would
be worth it.Subj:  Re:  Medications for ADD
Date:  95-07-08 21:23:57 EDT
From:  Cher rl 42

This is the first time I have ever entered anything on any bulletin board.
My son, who is 14, has ADD.  He will be going into the 9th grade this coming
school year.  I cannot tell you what the last 8 years have been like.  We,
fortunately,. in our school system have a school psychologist in our school
system who has educated himself about ADD.  From kindergarten on, school has
been a nightmare.

We first put him on Ritilin, VERY, very reluctantly, at the end of his second
grade year.  His neurologist has a son who is ADD so in that
respect we, again, are fortunate that we have someone who is educated about
the disorder.

It has been very frustrating and heartbreaking to see my son struggle with
this disorder.  He knows he is different and it has been very hard for him.
I have had teachers that have basically put in him a closet-like setting to
give him a so called "quiet" atmosphere.

I have had one teacher call me and basically scream at me on the phone
because my son was sent out of a DARE demonstration by the officer that was
giving the presentation.  When I arrived at the school, she told me that he
just happened to be the one that caused the last disturbance and that the
class had been warned that the next one who made a noise would be dismissed,
and guess who that was.  She also told that this teacher's class the worst
one she had.  The whole class, not just my son.
Ritilin has not been the miracle that some parents have said they have had
when their child has gone on it.  It has helped him,. but he still struggles.
I am not excusing all of his behavior or trying to say that ADD is the reason
he does some of the things that he does, but I know it contributes.

My question is I have just read an article about the drug Tenex and am
wondering if anyone out there has heard about its use with ADD and/or if
their children have tried it, and if so, what the reasults were.  I am
anxious to hear.  I will be discussing this drug with my son's neurologist,
but am wondering if anyone has heard anything about this.

Cheryl from WisconsinSubj:  Re:  Medications for ADD
Date:  95-07-08 23:15:19 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Tenex can help but generally it helps with things like explosive temper,
sometimes a trait that accompanies ADD.

Are you sure your son is taking enough medication?Subj:  Re:  Medications for
ADD
Date:  95-07-10 22:34:27 EDT
From:  Cher rl 42

He is taking about 40 mgs. am and 30 at noon when he is in school.  He is now
14.  He also has taken Clonidine at bedtime, but it does not seem to help.
We don't give him medication in the summer.

This is such a frustrating disorder.  He does have outbursts of temper, but I
think that some of it is frustration.  I don't know where the ADD ends and
being a teenager begins.

We have noticed that when he is tired, or especially when he is hungry he
can be more irritable.  I have watched him be hungry and see a DRAMATIC
change in him after he has eaten, almost like taking a drug.

I know that people get cranky when they are hungry and tried, but this is
different.  Has anyone ever noticed that about their child with ADD,
especially when they are hungry and after they have eaten.

Also, thanks for the response.     Subj:  Re:  Medications for ADD
Date:  95-07-11 11:14:59 EDT
From:  Ratatat

<<We have noticed that when he is tired, or especially when he is hungry he
can be more irritable.  I have watched him be hungry and see a DRAMATIC
change in him after he has eaten, almost like taking a drug.>>

Yes, what I have noticed with my daughter is that her ADD symptoms are
noticably worse just before dinner or when she is hungry.  She tends to get
very, very sleepy and very cranky.  Then, after she eats, she is a human
again!  I try to make sure she gets big nutritious snack when she after
school, but this is not always possible when she has after school sports.
However, when she does eat something good around 3:30pm, it really helps.

Is your son on the sustained release Ritalin or the regular?  Does he get any
right after school?  The rebound (when the med wears off, the ADD symptoms
seem to kick-in *big time*), when it happens right after school or evening is
ususally a sign that an afternoon dose might be helpful.

Maybe if you keep a journal for a couple of weeks and chronicled the
outbursts and other behaviors you are seeing you might see a pattern of when
(in relation to meds and stressers) they happen or what triggers them.

This log you could then use to talk to your doctor.  This kind of reporting
makes things much more concrete for the treating doc and really helps them
with medication choices and adjustments.

Keep us posted :)

Subj:  Re:  Medications for ADD
Date:  95-07-11 13:05:37 EDT
From:  LTroudy

My son has ADD and just started taking meds.  He has been in language therapy
since he was 3 ( mostly language organization - CAP ) and we put 2 million
strategies in place prior to medication.  He is well liked and maintains very
positive social behaviors.  Then he comes home!!!! He is like a soda can
someone has been shaking all day and then finally opens.  You are right- food
and rest and stress all play a major part in what is going on.  The
neurologist really encouraged us to keep a log and graph if needed behaviors
at certian times of the day.  My son is taking Cylert and we were lucky to
hit the right medication early.  He stressed loud and clear that it could
take a long time to find the right medication and the right dose.  Don't give
up, be flexible and find a doctor who is willing to work with you.
Sometimes it is a matter of increasing/decreasing dosages othertimes it is
trying a different medication.  Look at time released, patches etc.  Be sure
to explore all avenues and keep the food levels  consistent.  We too see that
drop off at 3:00 and before dinner.  My son is thin and a picky eater and we
have spent years trying to stay away from junk food etc.   Now when he is
hungry he eats, he may skip dinner because he was starving at 4:30 and then
wnats to eat again at 7:00, but letting him eat when he wants to makes a big
difference.  I think the appetite get so suppressed at times then he is
instantly  starving.Subj:  Re:  Medications for ADD
Date:  95-07-11 16:28:55 EDT
From:  Cher rl 42

Thank you for all the suggestions.  I have never kept a journel of his
behavior.  That is something new to try.  I have also never heard of Cylert.

We will be seeing his neurologist this summer and I will ask him about this
medication.  Also at one point he talked about the sustained release form of
ritilin, but then when I had brought it up again later, I seemed to get a
confusing answer.  Is it truly sustained release or just a larger dose so it
will last longer.  This seemed to be the answer that I got from him when I
brought it up again.

I had fought medication with my son for many years.  This was a very hard
decision to make, which I am sure all parents of ADD/ADHD children go
through.  The horror stories of Ritilin that you read about and hear from
"well-meaning" friends and co-workers really scared me, and these are really
well-meaning people, I don't mean to imply that they are not, BUT usually
they are not the ones with ADD/ADHD children.

I have been dealing with this for over 10 years.  From elementry school on it
has been a fight.  This disorder does not fit in with the usual LD/ED
disablities that teachers have finally come to recognize.  I feel that most,
not all, teachers feel that these children are lazy, not motivated and could
behave and sit still if they want to.

Don't get me wrong.  My brother is a teacher, my mother has worked in our
school system for 30+ years, so I see the teachers side of this also.  It is
very frustrating for them to try and teach children like this, especially
when they aren't or won't educate themselves about this disorder, but I also
feel that when I go up to the school to bring a new supply of medication,
because my son forgot to bring it, and they tell me that they have a boxful
of medications for different children there, I feel that it is time to look
at the curriculum (sorry if that is spelled wrong) for these children.

I went to a workshop for parents with ADD children that our school
psychologist and some guidance counselors put on.  I don't know how many
letters they sent out but there were only 5 parents there.  Aside from that,
the point that I am trying to make is that these parents had children coming
up in the grades, kindergarten through 5th or 6th grade.  The one teacher
that was there (there were to a couple of others, but they didn't show
either, so it works both ways) was trying behavior modification.  While I
think some behavior modification is good, I also feel that they are trying to
make our children fit their program.  And while some of that is okay, these
children are different and you cannot fit a round peg in a square hole.

Thanks for letting me vent!!  And again thanks for the new thoughts and
ideas!!!Subj:  Re:  Medications for ADD
Date:  95-07-12 14:10:03 EDT
From:  Ratatat

<<We will be seeing his neurologist this summer and I will ask him about this
medication.  Also at one point he talked about the sustained release form of
ritilin, but then when I had brought it up again later, I seemed to get a
confusing answer.  Is it truly sustained release or just a larger dose so it
will last longer.  This seemed to be the answer that I got from him when I
brought it up again.>>

Ritalin SR (sustained release) is a tablet of 20mg of Ritalin that does
release smaller amounts for about 8-12 hours.  The approx. equilalent amount
of release is 6-8 mg at a time.  It also takes about an hour for it to *kick*
in after the initial dose.

The advantages are that you only have to take it once a day.  For some
people it works very well.  More often I hear that I is very uneven and does
not work optimally.  It looks like this --->  VVVVVVVV  Which can make it
very hard for kids to be up and down throughout the school day.

Also, because it takes a while to start taking effect, this can be a problem.

What I have heard of people doing is to take a 20mg Ritalin SR in the morning
along with a 5 or 10 mg of regular Ritalin (this helps the person get some
benefit right away).  I also understand that for some people that extra
regular Ritalin can help regulate the SR to behave in a more even way.

The way ADD is expressed is so individual, and the way each person responds
to medications is too.  There is a lot of trial and error involved until you
find the right medication, the right amount and the right times of day.Subj:
Re:  Medications for ADD
Date:  95-07-12 14:17:18 EDT
From:  Ratatat

<<I have been dealing with this for over 10 years.  From elementry school on
it has been a fight.  This disorder does not fit in with the usual LD/ED
disablities that teachers have finally come to recognize.  I feel that most,
not all, teachers feel that these children are lazy, not motivated and could
behave and sit still if they want to. >>

This disorder does not fit into the usualy LD/Ed mold that teachers expect,
you are right.  The interesting this is that studies done by some responsible
educators show that the typical accommodations that are necessary for
children with ADD are also beneficial to all the students, and all the
children do better when they are in place!  In the end the teacher's job is
easier and it takes no extra time!

Thinking that a child with ADD could do better if they just tried harder is
like telling a blind person that if they wanted to, they could see, IMHO.

<<While I think some behavior modification is good, I also feel that they are
trying to make our children fit their program.  And while some of that is
okay, these children are different and you cannot fit a round peg in a square
hole.>>

Behavior modification is a part of what should be a comprehensive plan to
support and teach the ADD child.  Other parts of this plan should include an
individualized education plan, a list of accommodations, specific strategies
to teach the child so they can be more independent in their study and
organizational skills and medication.  Not one of these things works best
alone...but in combination they can be incredible.

It makes me sad that schools what the kids to adapt to them, when the best
education happens with the school adapts to  meet each child's needs.

Have you though of providing the school with the CHADD Educator's Manual?  It
only costs around $12 with shipping.  It is an excellent overview of ADD and
what schools can and must do to address the needs of a child with ADD.  You
could buy two...one for yourself and one for your school.  You can order them
from 1-800-545-5583 (CHADDs distributer).



Subj:  Re:  Medications for ADD
Date:  95-07-14 19:31:54 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Is it truly sustained release or just a larger dose so it will last longer.
"

It's truly sustained release. The dosage sounds higher, but it is released
gradually over a longer period of time. Usually it has to be combined with a
small dose of the fast-acting at the beginning of the day, and sometimes a
small dose of the fast-acting at the end of the day helps avoid rebound. Some
people take overlapping doses of the sustained release and get a very smooth
response -- which is one of the main goals, of course.

You make some really good points--especially about the behavior modification.
Good luck with this. If any of us can help more... welll.... you know where
to find us!Subj:  ADD is over diagnosed
Date:  95-07-14 23:58:29 EDT
From:  CottageCom

Many "Willy Wigglies" are diagnosed with ADHD just because they don't fit the
adult's idea of how a child should sit still if he is paying attention.  Look
around you at adults. Don't you see people that are just more mobile?  Do we
want to label them all ADHD?  Get a second opinion and read up on ADD and
different learning styles before you put your child on a possible lifetime of
drugs.  If you want to address me directly since I won't be back here til who
knows when, [e-mail]   I'd be glad to send you some info.Subj:
Re:ADD is over diagnosed
Date:  95-07-16 20:51:25 EDT
From:  Socadream

How did you come to this conclusion?  Do you think these parents are morons
who never question the school, doctors or others who are involved with the
diagnosis of their child?  How dare you insinuate that you are qualified to
make that assumption.  How long have you been doing this research (if any)?
  It's time, Cottage, to pull your head out of the sands of ignorance and
start educating yourself.

Socadream
(one who has lived with it for 16 yrs ( my child) and who has heard the
horror stories from an adult adhd (these scars last a lifetime).Subj:  Re:ADD
is over diagnosed
Date:  95-07-18 00:46:54 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Many "Willy Wigglies" are diagnosed with ADHD just because they don't fit
the adult's idea of how a child should sit still if he is paying attention. "

Simply isn't true. Occasionally someone will think such a thing on such
flimsy evidence, but not diagnosticians.

"Get a second opinion and read up on ADD and different learning styles before
you put your child on a possible lifetime of drugs."

Although the suggestions to get second opinions and to read up are excellent,
the comment about drugs is terribly imflammatory. Of course, anyone who reads
up on ADD will realize that, but still... there's no need to be so
alarmist.Subj:  ADD/LD social skill training
Date:  95-07-20 09:52:05 EDT
From:  LDPLUMLEY4

Hello,
I have spent a long time reading people's stories. It's nice to know you're
all out there. Too bad we all have these problems.Sometimes it feels lke
other parents don't understand.
This is my story. My daughter is 9 going into 3rd grade. We held her back
from entering Kindergarten.We thought she needed to mature, was horribly
difficult,  2 hr temper tantrums,etc . I'm sure a lot of you identify. . By
1st grade we asked for a case study , was turned down.I started doing a lot
of reading , she was diagnosed with ADD and started Ritalin. She was  behind
academically and social skills were not here. 2nd grade comes, by Oct. we ask
again for case study, was told she was not" significantly behind
academically". My instincts said this is not all there is to it. Something is
backwards about her logic , concepts are hard for her, she is behind in math,
reading.We request in writing an evaluation and they have 60 days to do
it.Stated we believed ADD was affecting her ability to learn and ? a learning
disabilty and we know what our rights are.We were in "battle" it was not
pleasant. Her teacher for the year is a whole other story. She stayed on the
fence the whole time. Would not support us.  Still they said
nothing is wrong.In private conversations with school psyc. ,was told it
costs alot to test all the kids parents request testing for.Meanwhile, we put
her in a social skills group, which helped me but not her. It's hard for to
stop and think to apply what she learned. By the time 60 days is up its May.
At the staffing they say she's overwhelmed,
frustrated,shut down and they don't know why. School Psyc. didn't believe she
even had ADD.. During the meeting the psyc said he wanted to do one more test
and we would meet one more time. I just could not believe they didn't find
anything.Our private  psyco believed there was by looking at her work.
Several days later i get called to school-something has happened
that changes everything. During a chain of events,they found out there was a
"conspiracy of harassment"(their words) against her for the whole year.By the
kids in her class. The whole class agreed to be mean to her, exclude her etc.
I had repeatedly told the school she would say these things.I heard"Not in my
class,its not""We would never let this happen"  How could the teacher not
have known??? The last test they did revealed a learning disability,
sequencing problem.My heart was broken for this child who suffered the whole
year with this. She tried to speak out about the harassment and wasn't
believed.I feel if she had been diagnosed earlier, her frustration would have
been lessened therfore she would not have been such a target for teasing.I'm
disappointed/angry at myself  for not pushing harder for her. I just didn't
know . You almost believe the school. I was on uncharted waters,for myself.
And I'm sooo angry at the school this whole situation happened. At our IEP
the teacher said she cried the last 2 weeks at school and the classroom
situation had worsened.I am trying to look foward to next year now that we
have a plan,quite extensive I think.She is classified with ED/LD andwill also
have more social skills work by the social worker.. If you have read this far
-Icould use advice to make sure the plan is enforced,problems to watch out
for, etc.I am not naive to believe our problems are over .Thanks for
"listening" You can e-mail me if you like

Subj:  Re:ADD/LD social skill training
Date:  95-07-20 16:36:35 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Unless they have *very* strong documentation you should challenge the ED
label. A conspiracy all year to pick on her? ANYONE would look ED at the end
of the school year!

If you don't have it, get CHADD's EDUCATOR'S MANUAL. Your child has ADD
(whether the school psychologist agrees means *nothing* if you have a
diagnosis from outside the school although the school can require a medical
confirmation *if they pay for it*)... and is entitled to all sorts of helps
(individualized for each child) even if not LD! She should have had this
support a long time ago, but often schools don't know what to do.

If you get two copies of the book (it's only $10 plus s/h) you can give one
to the school, and then they will knwo what they can do.

Schools have lots of info on LD because we have a whole government
beaurocracy in place.

Do you think your child is "ED?" Those are strong words. Does the
psychologist agree? Do you think she acts "disturbed" at home, or just ADD?
If you don't agree with the ED make 'em dump it.Subj:  re:ADD/LD social skill
training
Date:  95-07-20 18:02:31 EDT
From:  LDPLUMLEY4

We struggled for a long time over whether or not to accept the ED label.I
definitely agree after a year of harassment she would look that way. In the
documentation the school recognizes the harassment to be "highly significant
factor in terms of explaining her everyday functioning and volatile mood
swings.We discussed the label several times with our psycologist and he
agreed with it. I think at this point the label fits, no matter how hard this
is to come to terms with .She has significant problems. The school documented
what happened to her and will,also, provide social work time for her as well
as special education.I believe they realize their responsibilty in helping
her come thru this, since they were most of the problem. They have
listed,significant mood swings,emotional outbursts,unable to appropriately
express thoughts,low frustration tolerance,ADD related concerns,etc,etc.A
long list. In my research I had read that ADD could be classified as an ED(
can't find source now) I also realize ADD kids could receive help even if she
wasn't LD. Originally, the school was saying it was not affecting her ability
to learn.I disagreed.That was the sticking point. I don't think the schools
are totally educated themselves.We also talked about removing the label as
soon as possible. I have lived with this child for nine years and this past
year was the worst.I know what living with her with "just  ADD" was like.
This is much worse. She can't get along well with others, she is so out of
the social loop.She even has said,"I was nice to everybody in school,and they
were mean to me, so, why should I be nice." She doesn't know how to work thru
this(I'm trying to help as best I can)She can't let go of ideas and doesn't
accept new ones. She has a problem with perseveration as well. I have learned
to trust my instincts,even the school admitted I was right and the have to
take parents "with a grain of salt", so many come in saying there is
something wrong with their kids. We did not take all this sitting down. We
went to the superintendent of schools,.This all happened in a "good" district
that people move to for the schools. You are the best advocate for your
child. I will not be pushed aside again. Well, it's hard to explain
everything that's happened in this "short"space. Hopefully this expalins
better
Subj:  Re:re:ADD/LD social skill traini
Date:  95-07-25 02:08:11 EDT
From:  Puns

It sounds like you had a nightmare year...but don't beat yourself up too
much.  You were doing all you could!  At least there was a positive
resolution.

Will your daughter be in a different class next year, or will she be facing
the same children?  If she's facing the same children, the harassment problem
has to be dealt with the first day of school.  It's important that the
message be sent out by the teacher, social worker, and the Principal.  Get
everyone involved in a class meeting that lays out the problem clearly to the
children so they'll understand, and is clear about consequences for future
harassment.

A few years ago I was a special ed resource room teacher.  I had a student
who was constantly getting into trouble with some other boys.  It turned out
that the boys were setting him up.  I went to the boys and told them that
when Michael got into trouble, whatever consequence he suffered, so did they.
They went through their machinations..."What if we're not even near him???"
etc.  I explained that it didn't matter...they better make sure he didn't do
it even when they weren't involved.  We had no more problems with Michael for
the rest of the year.Subj:  Re:re:ADD/LD social skill traini
Date:  95-07-25 08:48:55 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Oh, I do feel better now. Thanks for explaining.

I know, the "ED" label is tough to accept. However, if it's accurate -- I
believe in *accurate* labels. As the man once said, "If you don't know where
you're going, any road will take you there." Accurate labels are the first
step in pointing the school toward appropriate interventions.

Good luck. With such dedicated parents I think this will turn out well in the
long run.

SusanSubj:  Re:Looking for Boarding School
Date:  95-07-26 12:23:02 EDT
From:  Rootswings

Check out St. Paul's Academy in Phoenix, AZ.Subj:  Re:re:ADD/LD social skill
traini
Date:  95-07-26 19:09:08 EDT
From:  LDPLUMLEY4

Puns and Susans29
Thanks, for your comments. In answer to "Puns", she will not be in class next
year with the main kids responsible for the harassment, although, the whole
class became involved.We have already met with next years teacher, who is
aware of the situation.The school would not tell me who these children
are,saying they could not discuss another child with us.Even with that, I
know who they are.I was ,also, told she would be watched closely on the
playground (I wonder how realistically that's possible) to prevent further
problems.

Subj:  Re:re:ADD/LD social skill traini
Date:  95-07-27 07:24:37 EDT
From:  Ratatat

<<The school would not tell me who these children
are,saying they could not discuss another child with us.Even with that, I
know who they are.I was ,also, told she would be watched closely on the
playground (I wonder how realistically that's possible) to prevent further
problems.>>

May I add a suggestion?  If you can, try keeping a journal of the incidents
that occur - as they happen.  Have a check-in with your daughter everyday or
so to find out how things are.  This way, if anything continues, you have a
record to use when you go in to speak to the teacher or principal.  It lets
them know that you can be serious too.  You might try to write down a
*history* of the past year.  Memory does fade and events can become tangled.
This might help you too if you ever need to step into the principals
office.Subj:  re:ADD/ld social skill training
Date:  95-07-29 10:09:54 EDT
From:  LDPLUMLEY4

Everyone is so helpful here. To Ratatat- I do have a journal,so, much was
happening it was the easiest thing to do. I also have samples of her work as
support. You would probably laugh, I have a box full of schoolwork, meeting
documention,etc,etc.The teachers this year will also start a journal we can
communicate in,I'm
not dealing with her blindly at the end of the day. I appreciate eveyone's
support and ideas. I'm sure  when school starts I'll need  more!!